Don't sweat it. Keep on keeping on. This forum was organized for people who see Y2K as a crisis and are preparing accordingly. If you're in that camp, you're a de facto Yourdonite.

Ironically, the increasing attempts to destroy the forum only confirm the nerve that has been struck. Amazing, isn't it, that our interest in speculating about Y2K's effects and collaborating together on preparation is so threatening to so many. Or to so few: with pseudonyms, it only takes a few people to kick up a lot of dust.

So nice that they care, don't you think?

As with most things in the history of this forum, they map pretty well to stuff that is *about* to happen in the broader culture. In this case, inceased hostility to GIs. 99% of the attacks on this forum are merely pathetic. This may not ultimately be so in the reel world.

So, in the *reel* world, keep a low profile, continue to prepare and don't sweat the small stuff.

To the regulars, let's just keep talking to each other across the noise. We can deal with it. Don't worry about how so-called "others" are interpreting threads (newbies, DGIs, etc). That's attempted mind-reading of the worst order: VIRTUAL mind-reading. Anyone who can't handle this forum will never be able to handle Y2K.

As always, there are threads each day that are invaluable, especially on preparation, and that will increase hugely over the next 18 months.

Y2K isn't a tea party or a sporting event, but an authentic crisis. "Hope for the best, prepare for the worst." Troll attacks, whether by people who hide behind pseudonyms, or by journalists or presumptive regulars, are a minor irritant against the backdrop of Y2K.

If you understand the Net, you know that trolls always put people in a "have you stopped beating your wife yet" position. So, in this case, the dumb-clever game is to ridicule us as predicting doom. Well, as Steve Martin used to say, "exxccccuuuuuusssssseeeeee me."

The computers are still broken. It's systemic. It's too late to fix them. And ....

"It's still Y2K, stupid."

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), March 23, 1999

Answers

Well said, BD! Well said!

it's okay though - there are really only about three actual trolls out there, and considering their maturity level, I give them another week or so on the outside before they declare victory and wander off...

Arlin

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), March 23, 1999.

Ignoring them with not even a character of response is the best way to run off a troll. Taking away their senseless, useless, drivel by refusing to banter with them makes them self combust. They then go to other forums looking for other newbies to shame and attack so they can feel better about their big, bad selves.

So,.....Just don't post a response!!! Regards to all serious contributors,

Mr. K
***likes this forum***

-- Mr. K (headache@the.present), March 23, 1999.

One more who's with you BD.

-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), March 23, 1999.

We are setting record numbers for posts every day, and there will always be a small percentage of critics. But they are relatively insignificant unless their words have merit, and as the saying goes "any fool can criticize, and most fools will."

-- @ (@@@.@), March 23, 1999.

Aye Aye wag at the BigDog day ;-)

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), March 23, 1999.

Way to go, BD!

-- jor-el (jor-el@krypton.com), March 23, 1999.

Right on, BigDog. Although there is a diversity of opinions regarding this issue, I think that's it's possible for a polite discourse.

I don't mind a difference of opinion.

I've had my share of debates..and based on my experiences, the more persuasive folks I've crossed don't have to resort to "in yo' face" tactics such swearing, name-calling, intimidation, hostility, and excessive confrontational taunting.

-- Tim (pixmo@pixelquest.com), March 23, 1999.

I Love You Man.

Of course the Bagga Saga was great troll relief for those of us with a sick senses of humor. But I concur--ignore the willfully ignorant.

-Got wisdom?

-- INVAR (gundark@aol.com), March 23, 1999.

INvAR!!!!! YOur evIL SAggA SUCkeD!!!! ALso, DIEteR WIShes tO TeLL YoU WHaT A MODeL CHriSTIAn yoU ARe!!!!! NoT!!!!

To yOuR PEriL!!!

-- Dieter (questions@toask.com), March 23, 1999.

Excellent post Mr. Dog! I'm doing exactly what you've written. I'm keeping a low profile, preparing quietly and I'm working on getting my family members to be GIs.

Mike ==================================================================

-- Michael Taylor (mtdesign3@aol.com), March 23, 1999.

BigDog:

Contamination of this forum will increase as more DGIs newly discover this site to post their irrational frustrations. These creeps want to destroy peoples' common sense in making preparations for the body, mind and spirit.

Ignore the DGI losers but support the GI newbies.

I'm not convinced this forum will be around "over the next 18 months". You are optimistic.

I'm more concerned about pre-Y2K surprises than Y2K itself.

-- dinosaur (dinosaur@williams-net.com), March 23, 1999.

I agree that content-free rants help nobody. Our preparations are improved in neither thoughtfulness nor appropriateness by name- calling, either of one another or of anyone else.

I hope you aren't implying that sincere doubts about the magnitude of the coming problems aren't destroying this forum, however. I consider these doubts valuable and worth investigating if there's anything behind them. Those who state categorically that 'It's systemic. It's too late to fix the computers' have closed their minds, and are impervious to further insights. Such people are our worst danger, because they aren't obvious trolls. They are subtle thought police.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), March 23, 1999.

I've been on this forum a very long time and have seen many come and go. Be patient because the worse leave and what we have left are quality people with a couple people to keep us on our toes. Don't sweat the petty stuff!

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), March 24, 1999.

As one who just annoyed a certain self-described "journalist," I have to agree with you! It was fun, though, especially watching Sweetie's face when I said someone dscribed me as a "spittle-spewing wacko." (He responded, "Oh, no, THAT's not true--you don't spew spittle!". . . Thanks, dear.) Was it you, Big Dog, or Mr. K--or someone else--who said something about not trying to teach pigs to sing, it's a waste of time and annoys the pig or something? Sorry, Old Git gets feeble-minded sometimes. Bears repeating anyway.

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), March 24, 1999.

Woof. Go Big Dog.

I remember when I was a kid, I asked my Dad why we just don't "beat" the Russians so there could be Democracy everywhere (OK, OK, it was a "kid" concept).

I'll always remember his response to me. It seems to apply here, too:

"You can't fight ideas with guns, just with better ideas."

We can't be "beaten" down here. Our ideas are more powerful than all of the whitewash in all of the PR departments of the government and Big Business combined.

(BTW, this is in no way an invitation to start yet another debate about guns. IThe topic is about FORCE vs FREEDOM OF SPEECH and the FLOW OF IDEAS ... the "gun" part of the comment is symbolic).

Got Ideas?

-- Sara Nealy (keithn@ptd.net), March 24, 1999.

Does this mean that people with different ideas than the "group" are not welcome to post here? So this is not really an open forium for exchange of different ideas, but a meeting place for the mutual masterbation of each others ideas and egos? I guess I will leave you all to stroke your own and each others egos. Sorry I misunderstood the concept of this forium.

-- Cherri (sams@brigadoon.com), March 24, 1999.

You folk are great, Thanks to Ed Yourdon for the forum. Even the trolls are humourous at times (rArELy:o) keep up the good work and remember

Y2K is not a management issue, it's personal

Brian

-- Brian (imager@ampsc.com), March 24, 1999.

Never wrestle with a pig. You'll both get dirty and the pig will love it.

-- (macdonald@farm.com), March 24, 1999.

"Does this mean that people with different ideas than the "group" are not welcome to post here? "

Absolutely not! Anyone with factual information related to Y2K has been generally welcomed in the past. Of course, an emotional argument won't go too far here, since most of the people are "well- armed" with well-researched facts. Like any forum, if you get too far off topic, you will problably be flamed, even if you provide a well researched factual argument.

Even factual arguments (either side of the Y2K issue) occasionally go down in flames, though. Just like in real life.

Finally, by nature, this forum leans towards Y2K doom-n-gloomers (like me). More optimistic types are having fun, feeding the poor, or getting rich (elsewhere).

-- Anonymous99 (Anonymous99@anonymous.com), March 24, 1999.

Y2K doom-n-gloomers (like me)

Even though I and others are prepared to the hilt already, to me (IMHO) this is a rather unwelcome label. Don't read my posts with a` doom/gloom reference. Just my thoughts.

Mr. K
***will make it fine through ALL of it - God willing***

-- Mr. Kennedy (not@all.doom), March 24, 1999.

It's systemic. It's too late to fix it.

The trouble comes from without not just from within. We are not an island unto ourselves tho we may end up one.

Tell me, Flint,why it is NOT too late to fix it if you are a country or a company with out the money or the intention of doing ANYTHING. Please explain this in simple terms because I must be very stupid. Do nothing and it will fix itself? Pray harder? Kill the computers?

-- y2klady2 (y2klady2@aol.com), March 24, 1999.

Flint, my golly, do ya really think 'those who think Y2K is systemic' are our "worst enemies?" I would think freezing to death, starving, dying of thirst are MY 'worst enemies.' Just where are you coming from? I think you're afraid to contemplate worst case scenarios because you fear they might be true, so you project your fears onto those who ARE willing to 'think the unthinkable,' anathematizing them. That doesn't do you and yours much good. If you don't think Y2K is systemic, fine. Just do yourself the favor of not considering those who do 'your worst enemy.' Talk about a technique of dehumanization.

-- Spidey (in@jam.com), March 24, 1999.

Spidey --- A simple reading of Flint's post against my initial comments make it clear that Flint is saying that people like me are the forum's "worst danger". Only, as always, he won't say that or anything in a simple, declarative English sentence.

This says a lot about Flint, since even the Senate report makes it clear that Y2K is systemic, the computers are broken and they won't be fixed in time (that is, taking Y2K worldwide, which we must).

That analysis of Y2K is about the least controversial statement one could make on March 24, 1999. It is certainly one that Ed Yourdon subscribes to: does that make Ed our "worst danger" as well? A member of the "thought police"? And you, Arlin, pshannon, Cook, Sprat and most of the other regulars? Coming from Flint, I honestly take these statements as a compliment. Please send me my badge ASAP. "Police Captain Big Dog" has a certain ring to it.

Flint gets off on putting me and anyone he can in a "have you stopped beating your wife?" trap so he can pose as one "above the fray." Yet, when you actually read his posts, it's like trying to claw your way through quicksand or like trying to grow healthy by eating cotton candy: no wonder Milne was so fierce with him on CSY2K.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), March 24, 1999.

I might also point out that, once again, when I post something rational and sensible about the very purpose of this forum, Flint inescapably makes the thread a fight about himself. Or are we supposed to ignore his simple, obvious intent? Interesting, isn't it?

For those of you just coming to this thread, please reread the initial post and do your best to ignore Flint. Yet again, I'm simply encouraging the regulars here to keep on keeping on ..... real controversial, eh?

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), March 24, 1999.

"Anyone with factual information related to Y2K has been generally welcomed in the past. "

Behold, the biggest lie yet told on this forum....

-- Y2K Pro (2@641.com), March 24, 1999.

Hey, bigdogterd:

What a self-righteous boob you are! In typical meme fashion, you characterize anyone who disturbs the cultish mindset in the most polemic way possible! "out to destroy this forum" Oh BABY!!!! A HAH HAH ha ha!!!! You and Mr. Ed make a great pair! He says yesterday:

"I wouldn't be surprised if the people on this forum had finished 90% of their personal preparations (not counting, of course, the people who occasionally show up on the forum to announce that they're adamantly opposed to the idea!)." What a 'crock O road apples'! haven't seen a single post to that affect.

What a joke! please point me to those people who are making these comments! Point out the people "trying to destroy this forum"...I'd like to have a word with them (nobody's going to rob me of a front-row seat watching "millennial madness"...firsthand!) LOL! what would I do for entertainment if this place closed up?

ta-ta

oh, almost forgot. How many of YOU two-faced blowhardsparticipated in the "let's invade (and to use your phrase "destroy the forum") of y2kisok.com?

-- Mutha Nachu (---@sillysillychildrens.com), March 24, 1999.

Cherrie: Everyone is welcome on this forum, but when people start jerking off with their mouth and someone puts them in their place, they get offensive and start accusing people on this forum of being intolerant. I've seen many posts like BigDogs here and I'm sure this one won't be the last one on this topic. This forum is not for everyone the same as some other forums are not for me. This BB is the best one around for documented information, and there are several people here who give valuable insight and are knowledgeable in many areas of industries which Y2K will affect. If anyone is intolerant and doesn't want to participate on this BB then I wouldn't waste another second here. JMHO

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), March 24, 1999.

I'm sorry I missed this thread last night. Like many, it's got a life of its own. I suppose the only two cents I can add is that as a social experiment, this forum can't be beat!

-- pshannon (pshannon@inch.com), March 24, 1999.

I'd like to make a few general observations here.

First, it will take more than "effort" or simple desire to destroy this forum from the outside. Capability will be required in all cases.

Now it is apparent that those with such capability exist, Ed Yourdon and Phil Greenspun for instance, and I don't suppose that anyone considers them as the most powerful people in our society. It seems almost certain that there are others who have the ability to "pull the plug" on this forum and yet have not done so. One can only speculate as to the reasons that they have not.

What is also clear and perhaps most relevant to this thread is that those whose presence here is marked by, ". . .jerking off with their mouth. . .", as Bardou so accurately describes it, are of necessity less powerful and capable than Ed or Phil or certainly of any of those "others". Were it not so, they would simply end this forum instead of verbally imitating monkeys who fling their own feces at the crowd.

The obvious response is to duck when they do so and to view the spectacle that they provide by their impotent attacks.

-- Hardliner (searcher@internet.com), March 24, 1999.

Yo Mutha --- You're always welcome because you bring a certain raw joie de HTML to the party. If you got my point, you fartface (gee, that's kinda fun, but I'll control myself), the troll stuff is just a minor irritant COMPARED to Y2K. We'll keep a front seat reserved for you and you're very welcome to the millenium party we're holding here at the dog house.

pshannon --- so true!

I sometimes wonder who the pseudonyms are .... for example:

What phony name is De Jagr posting under here? Or Declan? Mitch Ratcliffe? Maybe Flint dressed up as a couple of "additional people" so he can unburden himself of his true feelings? How about Koskinen? OK, maybe not Mr. K. Or maybe Mr. K. is Dieter?

I jest not. I'd bet big money that some surprising "real" people post to this forum under fake names with fake email. I may use a handle but, as many of you know, my email is real.

Final word, my Mutha: not to worry, the forum can't be destroyed. Unless the grid collapses. You wouldn't be a ham, would you?

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), March 24, 1999.

OK, maybe not Mr. K. Or maybe Mr. K. is Dieter?

lol, I couldn't even imagine being in that warped environment called a skull....lol (no offense DiEteR - you have a unique perspective).

If everyone agreed about everything, there wouldn't be an issue at hand. If there were cut-and-dried answers, there wouldn't be a forum. It would be so boring, the living breating entity of this forum would wither up all by itself.

The diversity of the issues bring out so much thought and ponderance of all types of scenarious that Y2K represents (what "could" happen). We have to look at all aspects. That's why this forum thrives. (IMHO)

Mr. K
***always ready to give time and research to both sides, but support the side personally believed in****

-- Mr. Kennedy (laughing@the.thought), March 24, 1999.

Mr. K --- LOL myself. Oops. I meant Koskinen all-through there as the Mr. K who might be posing as Dieter. My humblest apologies. You Da Man with the K.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), March 24, 1999.

'Point out the people "trying to destroy this forum"...I'd like to have a word with them.....'

Careful what you ask for, Mutha Nachu. You just might get it.

-- Chronos (father@time.com), March 24, 1999.

Lapdog:

"If you got my point, you fartface (gee, that's kinda fun, but I'll control myself), the troll stuff is just a minor irritant COMPARED to Y2K."

2 points:

A) 'fartface'... I'd have to give that about a 3.7 on Mutha's Ad Hominem Scale... not bad, but you need practice!

B) by 'troll stuff' do you mean the bucking of assumptions? If that makes a Troll, Sign me up, Baby!!! Bucking assumptions is how people (smart people, that is) learn. Only the "Genuine Ignorants" forge ahead on pre-concieved notions. Where would we be today if the assumptions of the medical community, say, a few hundred years ago, were never challenged? Still being bled by barbers?

Inductive research is paramount to testing any theorum... and a willingness to change based on FACTS... It is truly pitiful to see those who will not change because of "having to admit they were wrong" or whatnot (I know...I've seen it firsthand).

Because a few bicycle-seat sniffers get together and scream "the world as we know it might be doomed...better safe than sorry" is no reason to freak...check the sources, baby... check the sources!

"Final word, my Mutha: not to worry, the forum can't be destroyed. Unless the grid collapses. You wouldn't be a ham, would you?"

Like a good little meme, you made sure to mention the mantra "grid collapse"...nice touch. As for ham, I am... in the histrionic sense! LOL!

hey; what's that?!?...what's that smell? oh that's just Chronos flatulating again... I'm now gonna take my rod and "reel", and have some "real" fun Ta-Ta!

-- Mutha Nachu (---@forestgladeandpond.com), March 24, 1999.

Your Mutha --- "grid collapse" was a joke in this case aimed at you. You should have spotted it. Now, who's being too serious?

You're absolutely correct about facts and they stand just as I stated them at the top of this thread. They will remain in force until we experience the relative impact of Y2K early next year. While it is too late for the Y2K facts to change, given the technical reality and the amount of time remaining this year, it is too early to adjust preparations against the impact.

Apart from yelling, there isn't much reason behind your posts, Mutha. But you already know that. Gotta love the HTML, though. It's so ... advanced.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), March 24, 1999.

Mr. K --- LOL myself. Oops. I meant Koskinen all-through there as the Mr. K who might be posing as Dieter

ROFLMAO

.... That's even better ......

Mr. K<
***who tends to agree with the Koskinen/DiEtEr connection...lol***

-- Mr. Kennedy (lauging@koskin'em.now), March 24, 1999.

All right, ALL RIGHT. The facts don't change, but the HTML clearly does. I know when I'm licked. Every thread, just like Y2K impacts, must devolve someday.

Any other contenders? For now, the hands down winner is the HTML Wannabe .....

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), March 24, 1999.

Thanks, BD.

Its all certainly an interesting social experiment.

Wish I could say the same about Y2K.

*Big Sigh*

Onward. The race is being run. Who will cross the finish line? Who wont?

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), March 24, 1999.

If anything has come close to destroying this forum, it has been the darkest of the fatalist doomsayers who dominated this forum for a time. I think many who were interested in community action and reasonable emergency preparedness short of preparing for Armageddon were put off by that group. I know I was. Now, it seems to have moderated somewhat.

-- Buddy (buddydc@go.com), March 24, 1999.

HeLLo aLL, I haVE JUSt fiNNisHED My mEEtiNG WItH BiLLLy clinTON!!!!! THInGS Are GOinG TO BE juST FIne, SO stOP woRRYinG!!!! i ALsO wANteD TO tELL yOu thAT i am NOT DIetER, NevER HAve beEN, NevER WiLL BE!!!!!

thANks fOR YOuR SUppORt.

JOhN

-- J. Koskinin (government@it's.best), March 24, 1999.