Just thought I'd share my experience at York County's first public Y2K meeting. To summarize- What a Joke!!! There were reps from the local utilities, hospital, government and food store. The guy from the food store really cracked me up (in a scary way) When asked how his stores would handle a breakdown in the supply line his response was "No problem. We have 6 weeks supply on hand (doubtful) and if we run out, we have our own trucks. We'll just go get more! HellOOOOooo! Can you say clueless? The local county officials say there will be no problems, we've got it under control, blah, blah, blah. The general attitude was one of "This is a big joke. Let's have a meeting to calm the ignorant masses" The electric guy was fairly sharp. He talked more than anyone and yet managed to say nothing. The only one that seemed to take it seriously was from the hospital. He looked scared. He even mentioned foreign supplies ie: 70% of insulin from Denmark,etc. I guess I can't blame them entirely. They are just repeating the garbage they hear from the state level. It's the usual-prepare for 3 days (if it makes you feel better, but it's not really necessary) No wonder people aren't preparing. Again..what a joke!

-- (rick@ina.com), March 16, 1999

Answers

Here in ventura the city and county guys said the same thing, we have 3 days of fuel for the generators. Had they been serious they might have mentioned that the main storage tanks have much more than that (like weeks to months worth of fuel, and that doesn't count the other local vendors of diesel who might have hundreds of thousands of gallons worth). But mentioning this might suggest that problems might last longer than 72 hours and we cant have that can we now?

I call that cowardice; somebody deserves to be shot.

-- henchbeck (quasimodo@belltower.com), March 16, 1999.

rick,

I feel your frustration. What a joke it all is. We have such a mickey mouse operation going on. Y2K community groups, non-profit orgs., church groups, emergency relief agencies, et al nationwide floundering around with no clear initiative on how to proceed with dealing with this national/global crisis.

We are all facing the biggest national/global crisis that this nation and the rest of the world has ever had to face and our President doesn't feel it's necessary to address the nation.

We have the goofy rational that it is only necessary for each and every state and local government to address it at their level with no national leadership whatsoever. TOTALLY INCREDULOUS.

TALK ABOUT DENIAL.

-- Feeling (foryou@lackofleadership.com), March 16, 1999.

rick,

Hello fellow York Countian. Didn't hear about the meeting in advance or I would have been there with you. Sounded like it was sparsely attended. How did the crowd respond to what was said? Did they "buy" it? And, did they address the fact that the county can not speak for the preparedness of each municipality/township in regards to water and sewer? PA is one of those places where every local town has it's own water and sewer system. No county coordination or supervision.

-- David (David@BankPacman.com), March 16, 1999.

The food guy said he had 6 WEEKS worth of food in his stores?!

Bull!! In today's competitive, cut-throat, low-margins, retail food industry, any outfit with that much stock on hand would be out of business in no time. The competition would wipe him out.

Just-in-time inventory is the industry standard (not just in the food biz) because it cuts costs immensely. As long as the whole supply chain is running smoothly, it's great. But any disruptions, like, say, a worldwide, simultaneous brain fart inside the machines managing the whole thing, will cause some serious problems.

-- rick blaine (y2kazoo@hotmail.com), March 16, 1999.

Rick and others-

I've noticed a disturbing trend on these forums. When someone posts a good news story, it is almost invariably ripped apart, word by word with allegations of lying and asking for data and proof. However, when the negative stories come up, people jump out of the woodwork to support them. If you're going to make allegations, the burden of proof falls on you. Prove that the food store won't have 6 weeks of food. Prove that the utility won't be able to provide power. Prove that local officials don't have it under control. If you can't substantiate that someone is lying or selling you a bill of goods, then you've really accomplished nothing.

-- john (im@mywitsend.com), March 16, 1999.

Prove that the food store won't have 6 weeks of food.

Well ... they sure don't have 6 weeks worth of FRESH veggies, fruit, milk, dairy products and meat:-) Maybe they have 6-wks worth of Spam?

FYI - City grocery store avg for re-stocking food is every 72 hours ... thanks to scanners and "Just-in-Time" deliveries.

-- C.K. HOUSTON (Ckufta@aol.com), March 16, 1999.

CK

Obviously, they don't have a six-week supply of perishables. That is a given. There isn't any store that does. So excluding those, please prove that the store doesn't have six weeks of food (excluding perishables), as well as the other allegations.

The store doesn't re-stock everything every 72 hours, does it?

-- john (im@mywitsend.com), March 16, 1999.

John,

The main reason that the "happy" news is looked at so closely is because they might be spinning. Personally, I look at both negative and positive news with scepticism. Unfortunately, the negative news is, more often than not, based in the cold hard facts. The "happy" news is, more often than not, based on misrepresentation of facts.

If you want to do research to the level that some of the people here do on a daily basis, more power to you. Seek out the negative news and disprove it. This is your mission, should you choose to accept it...

-- d (d@usedtobedgi.old), March 16, 1999.

d-

The negative news is no more based on hard cold facts than is the positive news. For example When a news article says that Saudi Arabian and Venezuelan oil systems are non-compliant, that seems to be taken as fact. But when a utility says it's ready for 2000, it's picked apart and seen as spin. Of course, the article about the oil doesn't tell you about the nature of the systems, how they assessed them, etc. Facts are in the eye of the beholder. I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I'm just saying that there isn't much objectivity in this forum. There is nothing wrong with holding GI's to the same standards that DGI's are held.

A good case in point is this thread. The poster made some generalized observations and people just agreed with it, without asking for any supportive information.

Just my observations.

-- john (i'm@mywitsend.com), March 16, 1999.

Hey John,

Like I said, you have your mission, should you choose to accept it. We're not here, as the mission statement of this forum describes, to debate the validity of Y2K preparation. If you want to prove that the negative statements are untrue, you have my official blessing TM to do just that. If not, quit bitching. Do something! The rest of us are! If you don't agree with us, prove us wrong, believe me, we want you to. We're busy stocking supplies in a time of plenty. No harm to anyone...

-- d (d@usedtobedgi.old), March 17, 1999.

d

I'm not debating the validity of Y2K prep by any stretch- I've been preparing myself.

I'm simply asking people to put their money where their mouth is. It's really quite simple. This forum has little objectivity, and DGI's are held to a higher standard of proof than GI's are. If people are going to make assertions, they should support them.

Do you think that it's unreasonable to ask people to back up their statements, irregardless of whether they are negative or positive. Is that what is called bitching?

I don't need to prove that negative statements are untrue. When someone implies or alleges that there is lying, deceit, etc., the burden of proof falls upon them.

By the way, nobody can prove that anyone is right or wrong at this point.

-- john (i'm@mywitsend.com), March 17, 1999.

They restock here (you apprently won't let me maintain that the same is true for York County!) 1/4 the goods every night, most of which comes in that day, or that night, via truck from the warehouse. They (the grocery stores) don't have room in "back" for more than 1 days of food and canned goods. Fresh and frozen goods are replaced or refilled daily so the 1/3 stocking on hand rule is true - they want 1/4 to 1/3 of all the goods in the store in the morning sold that day.

Then they replace the 1/3 to 1/4 of all items with new ones every day.

-- Robert A. Cook, P.E. (Kennesaw, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), March 17, 1999.

John,

Most people here do back up their statements with documented facts. To be fair though, you're probably right. I've already made my decision as to how I'm going to prepare. Even if I had a gaurantee that there would be no Y2K problem, I wouldn't trade my preps for anything. To a certain extent we're trying to back up the decisions that we've already made. It's human nature. Try to suggest any prep at the "Gary North is a Big Fat Idiot" forum. You'll see how civil we are.

I'll keep heading to the range every week. I'll keep my supplies fresh. I'll be ready for a disruption, if it happens, no matter what causes it. If Y2K is nothing, then I have learned a great deal. I'm more prepared and I have a real appreciation for the complexity of the world that I live in. There is no down side to preparing.

If you agree with that, then what's your point? Are you trying to tell us how we should spend our hard earned dollars? Do you want to tell me what I can and can't buy?

If you simply want fairness in reporting, you can complain to Ted Turner, or you can do something about it. I'm not going to do your research for you. If you aren't willing to do the work, don't complain. It's simple.

-- d (d@usedtobedgi.old), March 17, 1999.

Jeez! I didn't mean to start a fight! After re-reading my post, I realize that I didn't offer supporting evidence for my remarks. However, a lot of the remarks are based on my perception of the "mood" of the panel. My opinions are also based on other info that I've found in my daily research. Such as the lack of reference to the domino effect from the poor preparedness of other countries. And the fact that the electric rep never said they were or were not compliant. Also, I didn't include my conversations with the different levels of government - from state to local. The attitude that I described is not something that can be verified...you just had to have been there. I know that I, as well as others who post here, make certain assumptions about others awareness and knowledge of the situation. It's not practical for me to point to verification of every point in the post. I know that others have had the same experience. Plus, as with any post, there is normally some opinion. Most of us realize that gathering facts about Y2K is extremely difficult and even then you can't be certain of the truth. I apologize if anyone feels that I've misrepresented myself but I would expect people to read these postings in the same light that I do...with a careful eye and an open mind.

-- (rick@ina.com), March 17, 1999.

John --- Your points would be more merited on some other threads. Note the first line of this thread, "Just thought I'd share MY experience ...". It is decidedly and explicitly subjective. Not provable, indeed, but I doubt rick intended to prove something.

If you want to challenge anything, challenge his interpretation of the general attitude there ("This is a big joke.") That is actually what this thread is about. The rest is incidental.

One other small point. Ed Yourdon feels (rightly, IMO) that, with Y2K the burden of proof is indeed on the "grocery store," not on Rick or us. Rick could well have asked THEM to prove they had six weeks of food and could easily get more. The burden isn't on us as citizens or individuals. It's on the government, big business, utilities, etc.

In that sense, the skepticism expressed on this forum about most things is justified, since very little proof has been offered by anyone (gov, business, etc) and the same gov (see Senate Report) has said some VERY scary things.

Glad you're preparing. That's the main thing, keep your eye on the ball alongside us kooks.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), March 17, 1999.