Has anyone seen the new report on use of handguns by juveniles?

"Meanwhile, The New York Times reported in Sunday's editions that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms is ready to report that 51 percent of the guns used in crimes by juveniles people aged 18 to 24 were purchased illegally over the last three years from licensed dealers by people acting as intermediaries for the real owners. Additionally 35 percent of guns used in crimes by juveniles and young adults were stolen. The rest were acquired from non-licensed private sellers not required to obtain identification or subject their customers to background checks." link

Clinton talked recently about outlawing private sales at gun shows, do you think we're looking at an end to all private gun sales?

Real soon?

-- Online2Much (wondering@the.moment), February 21, 1999

Answers

Online, That is the next logical step for the gun grabbers. On the 'real soon' part, new gun regulations do seem to be accelerating. The next gun tragedy will be used to create an uproar for this kind of law. This tactic has been used so successfully in the past, I don't see them changing it.

-- RB (R@AR.COM), February 21, 1999.

They don't need any new laws. If you engage in a private sale of a gun you have to register it or you are breaking the law. Call your local ATF office and ask - they will tell you in a heartbeat.

-- Paul Davis (davisp1953@yahoo.com), February 21, 1999.

This BATF "study" has no credibility whatsoever. It is purely a politically correct attempt to counter the contention by gun manufacturers that most guns used by juveniles in crimes are stolen. The latest round in this battle to abolish the Second Amendment is to subject weapons manufacturers to the same liability lawsuits that were brought against the tobacco industry.

-- Elbow Grease (Elbow_Grease@AutoShop.com), February 21, 1999.

Sorry Paul, that's simply not true. From the ATF site:

Where are the rest of the crime guns in the YCGII reports that were not successfully traced coming from? <-- back to cover

The tracing system by itself cannot provide all the answers and that is why ATFs illegal firearms trafficking strategy also incorporates the debriefing of crime gun possessors for information regarding their source of firearms. Many of the firearms that were not traceable are older guns. Because these are older guns, they may have changed hands multiple times in private unrecorded transactions. There are many instances where firearms transactions may not be recorded in "secondary markets". Secondary markets often consist of unregulated and unlicensed private sales in which transactions are not required to be recorded. This creates a situation where it becomes harder to trace a firearms history.

http://www.atf.treas.gov/core/firearms/ycgii/overview/overview.htm

-- Online2Much (not@yet._), February 21, 1999.

Paul D. are you in one of the socialist states (NY, CA, MA, etc)? There are some states which attempt to regulate private sales but there is NO federal law requiring registration of private sales of firearms.

Indeed, I would encourage everyone who can do so, to buy and sell their firearms privately, so as to avoid ever letting the federal government know exactly who has what.

Arlin Adams

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), February 21, 1999.

The only problem with that, Arlin, is that in states with a mandatory background check by dealers (and usually a waiting period), a private gun seller runs a risk of being civilly liable if the person he sells to is a felon and he did not run a background check. The responsibility lies on the seller of guns to check the buyer's background even though not required by statute; if that gun is used in the perpetration of a crime, the victim can win his or her case in court against the seller. Sad, but that's the status. We can thank the O.J. Simpson's of the world for some of this; as criminals get away with violent crimes, the victims and their families are turning to civil court for relief. And any lawyer worth his or her salt tries every angle that a jury may accept to get the victim compensated.

Jeannie

-- jhollander (hollander@ij.net), February 21, 1999.

jhollander

Yes, people are turning to the courts for compensation. But unless you have some big $, the lawyers won't much bother you (not selling to a felon helps too!) Notice that not many people bother to file a lawsuit against the criminals that actually commit the crime. They generally don't have the assets to make it worthwhile. But they will sue that company that manufactured the gun 20 years ago, because that's where the money is. Our society has truly gone bonkers.

-- Online2Much (not@me._), February 22, 1999.

I fail to see how one could do an effective background check on a person without running NCIC and other checks. I don't have the time or money to hire a PI to check the guy out either.

I ask to see their DL, note the info, and ask them to sign a paper saying that they bought this gun, and that they are not prohibited by law from possessing it.

For those who think that having off-paper guns is so great, consider this:

To the best of my knowledge, in communist-type countries, when they came for the guns, they also took the owner with them. If the owner was VERY lucky, he got to stay in a re-education camp (death camp). Normally, he got a bullet in the head for his trouble.

You see, a gunowner could have cached more weapons, so he was still a threat.

So, having guns that are off paper isn't likely to help you unless you have NO paperwork linking you as a gunowner. If they know that you own even ONE gun, you're on the list.

You are likely to be taken out and killed, so you might as well bug out or resist, because you're dead otherwise.

Sucks, doesn't it?

-- Bill (billclo@hotmail.com), February 22, 1999.

Julie,

I understand your concerns, I guess as a responsible firearms owner I wouldn't sell to anyone whom I did not trust...and I don't buy from folks I don't trust either...my fault for not stating that up front.

Arlin

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), February 22, 1999.

Well I'll be d****d. Was told private sales had to be registered by the new owner by an ATF agent I met nearly 20 years ago. (Friend of mine was trying to get a dealers license - I went along for moral support.) Wonder if the law has changed since then?

-- Paul Davis (davisp1953@yahoo.com), February 23, 1999.

Paul,

You should have asked for a copy of the pertinent regs, as I've never heard of that regulation. He could have been giving you bad info.

I have difficulty believing that it's a Federal reg that private sales MUST be registered. They'd LIKE for you to register it, but I'm not aware of any REQUIREMENT to do so in Federal law. Some states require it, but in any case, it's a difficult one to enforce if you know your buyer.

-- Bill (billclo@hotmail.com), February 24, 1999.