From csy2k.

David Wilkerson.

Several years ago (I think 1984), he wrote a book in which he predicted three things. The first prediction was the public humiliation of a prominent group of evangelists (this was *before* the fall of Swaggart, Baker, Tilton et al). The second, was a war in the Middle East in which the fires from 500 wells would turn the day into night (think 1990, CNN, and 503 well fires). The third? I'll get to it.

A few years later, he asked the members of his church to meet him the following day on the steps of a firm on Wall Street. He wanted them to see the faces of the traders when the market took a nose dive. That was October 1987.

I began subscribing to his *free* newsletter a few years later, and while there were other predictions that I do not recall clearly, the one about race riots and fires in L.A. is *very* clear. Within six-eight weeks of reading his words, the King verdict came in and South Central L.A. burned.

He now sees an economic depression on the immediate horizon that will make the 30's look like a cake walk. He sees 1,000 fires and looting in New York. He sees men trading luxury cars for pennies on the dollar. He sees all stock traders looking for an exit at the same time. In the words of Hunter S. Thompson, he sees much "Fear and Loathing" in the near future.

His third prediction from 1984? American cities, coast to coast, would burn.

Do I think everything will happen as he envisions it? I don't know. The only thing I do *know*, is his track record is better than anyone in this group (csy2k).

Jeff - Definitely not a prophet

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), February 08, 1999

Answers

I checked out his web sight http://misslink.org/chapel/teacher/multilan.html someone posted it on an earlier thread. My husband asked about one of his books at a large Christian book store and the salesman made a face and said "we really don't carry any of his stuff" like he was a heretic.

Wilkerson preaches alot on y2k.

I personally am undecided about him.

Deborah

-- Deborah (prophecy@timesquare.ny), February 08, 1999.

Wow, thanks Andy. I was starting to feel kinda bummed, but that cheered me right up. ;->

BTW -- If prophecies interest you generally, here's the site to visit: http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana

-- investing (in@fire.extinguishers), February 08, 1999.

Never mind :)

Found a link at

http://www.misslink.org/chapel/teacher/ts990118.html

worth a read

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), February 08, 1999.

Sorry Deborah and Investing, we all cross-posted!

Thanks for the morgana link, I'll check it out.

I AM interested in prophecy - from Mother Shipton to St. John to Edgar Cayce to Nostradamus.

Cheers, enjoy the rest of '99!!!

Andy

Two digits. One mechanism. The smallest mistake.

"The conveniences and comforts of humanity in general will be linked up by one mechanism, which will produce comforts and conveniences beyond human imagination. But the smallest mistake will bring the whole mechanism to a certain collapse. In this way the end of the world will be brought about."

Pir-o-Murshid Inayat Khan, 1922 (Sufi Prophet)

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), February 08, 1999.

Interesting.

I'm not up to speed on secular prophets, but without quoting scripture directly, I believe that the bible has plenty pain laid out for our future.

In a nutshell: because of our disobedience, our judgement will be swift. It will come in an hour's time. Our cities will be laid waste. Famine will engulf us. A third die by violence, a third by starvation and exposure, the remaining third.... well, A foreign and horrible global power will sweep through and captivate those that are left. There wouldn't even be time to assemble an army against them. This is Satans wrath on an unrepentant people that God will allow to happen for our disobedience to Him as a people. This is otherwise known a the Tribulation. Y2K just makes sense in the puzzle piece of prophecy to bring the horrible events in scripture to fruition in this generation.

God's wrath on the other hand, comes later. And that encompasses the whole globe. The tribulation does too, but with the focus on the nations God has blessed with wealth and stature unmeasured in human history.

The final assesment I make from combining my study of scripture and the unfolding chaos Y2K is likely to bring is this: it's going to take God to clean up this coming mess. Man won't be able to do it on his own. We are about to learn we cannot govern ourselves without imperiling our species' own survival.

Jesus himself stated (whether you view him as the Messiah, or a prophet as Muslims and some Jews do) "for there shall be such tribulation such has not occured since the beginning of the world until now, or ever shall be again. Because unless those days are shortened, no life (or flesh) shall be saved alive. Mt 24:19-22

Pretty grim, but we did it to ourselves.

-- INVAR (gundark@aol.com), February 08, 1999.

Andy,

if I had to pick any of the above prophecies as applicable to y2k I'd go with DW's. I don't get his newsletter, but I know of his reputation, and I know people who vouch for the fact that his Christianity is quite orthodox (in the lower case "o" sense of the term). I *do* have to say however that I've seen no confirmation of this particular prophecy from any other Christian source (and I'm really not interested in non-Christian sources), so I'll remain somewhat skeptical at this point in time.

Arlin

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), February 09, 1999.

Here is what he "saw" going on in New York City. He doesn't give an exact date for it: "On the country road that night, I was seeing in my mind's eye New York City burning in flames. I saw more than a thousand fires burning at one time. There were riots, bloodshed, tanks rolling into the streets, troops wielding rifles in an attempt to restore order. People were mobbing grocery stores for provisions, looting merchants, raging out of control. I realized that when riots come, there will be no food left in grocery stores. Computer disasters will affect their jobs and paychecks. Violence on the streets could keep them shut up in their homes, perhaps for weeks."

-- Gayla Dunbar (privacy@please.com), February 09, 1999.

Thanks everyone, what a knowledgeable group!

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), February 09, 1999.

There may be riots. There may be chaos. Hell may explode onto Earth. But it will not be permanent. Regardless of your religious beliefs (I'm a deist, personally), the choice is in the hands of individuals.

One person can make a difference. One person can influence a thousand. A thousand can make a big difference. Look at Hitler. He influenced forty million to make a NEGATIVE difference. Think of the *positive* difference that could have been made instead.

We are molecules of water in a flowing river. But unlike actual H20 molecules, we can influence others if we so choose to. We can fight the current. We can, as individuals, turn the tide.

Those prophecies are trials. If we fail in these trials, millions will die. But what if we were to PASS? What if we were to forge, in the same way that heat (and some other metals, admittedly) turns iron into steel, ourselves into something BETTER because of the crisis? What if we were to, as individuals influencing a race, change the course of future history?

I believe we can. I believe we're going to have the chance to.

And I believe we will.

-- Leo (lchampion@ozemail.com.au), February 09, 1999.

What makes DW ring true is that he exposes the false idols of our times....coveteousness, greed, the love of money and pleasure. And he points a finger first at the church. We who are Christians need to stop pointing our fingers at everyone else and remember there are three pointing back at us.

I was at the prayer summit in Wash. D.C. last week to pray for our government and our nation. I was joined by about 200 other pastors and other Christians. God did an amazing thing with us as we met in a room in the senate building in a room near where the impeachment hearings were taking place. We entered to pray for others ... we left praying for ourselves. God's Spirit made us to look at ourselves and confess our sins openly. There was weeping and crying out to God for forgiveness and healing.

My friends, this is how revival begins. It begins in our own souls and it begins with God's people. Only as we humble ourselves, be contrite in spirit and fear God will unbelievers draw near as they see our contrition and not our condemnation. May the theme of Christians in the coming days be, "God, be merciful to me a sinner."

What this nation and world needs is revival. It is the only hope. A turning to God. DW thinks it is too late for that. Our senators are faced with Barabbas or Jesus. Which will they choose? To let the rule of immorality go or the rule of law go? The people through the polls have told them how to vote. It will lead to terrible consequences. Please pray for these senators today and all week.

DW refuses to be called a prophet. But I can't help but believe what he is predicting in his new book...economic collapse.

Deborah: He doesn't preach on y2k. He barely mentions it. He believes that the '29 crash was brought on by God because of the roaring immorality and he believes seventy years later God is going to bring another crash because of the 'gay nineties'.

Those who are preparing for the coming crisis: DON'T FORGET TO PUT GOD FIRST IN YOUR PREPARATIONS. TAKE TIME TO DRAW NEAR TO HIM IN REPENTANCE AND CONFESSION OF YOUR SINS. See Isa. 57:15; 58; 59; and 65:2f. He wants to break us so He can use us. Let us who believe get in touch with God's plan for the days ahead and stop listening to man's plans. As DW says rightly, God wants to show each one of us how to prepare and be ready for the days ahead. Psalm 46 and 91.

Peace, Pastor Bob

-- BBrown (peace2u@bellatlantic.net), February 09, 1999.

"There may be riots. There may be chaos. Hell may explode onto Earth. But it will not be permanent. Regardless of your religious beliefs (I'm a deist, personally), the choice is in the hands of individuals."

Apples & Oranges. While most of Christianity is, in my opinion, really just culture, at a "spiritual" level, Christians believe in a single "intelligence" - "the will of God". Understand your (Christian) audience.

Christians can choose to be with or apart from God, but in Christianity, God is always there like a puppet-master. I don't think it a coincidence that many of the early Christians were slaves practicing a religion born out another religion born of slavery (Jews).

Oops - did it again! WHERE is that asbestos suit!?

-- Anonymous99 (Anonymous99@anonymous.com), February 09, 1999.

Leo --- There is a dynamism to much biblical prophecy that takes into account both the will of God (He is allowed to have one, no?) And the will of man. Y2K may indeed be a trial of man from the divine point of view and it may have a positive result.

Wilkerson would agree with that, BTW, but would understandably use the word repentance as a necessary condition for passing the test where you might use words like wise preparation and response. Arguably, many of the threads on this NG call for a kind of repentance on the part of our culture, no? This may be one little-realized reason why so many of us from different spiritual backgrounds share so much agreement about Y2K .....

You can put the asbestos away, Anonymous. There is too much religious flaming on this board as it is. But at least accept my experiential testimony that there is also an amazing dynamism in the relationship between the God-who-is-real and those who (claim to)know Him.

What I would say is that many Christians (heck, most people) want to live as slaves, whether to God or their fearless leaders.

The real message of the gospel is an end to slavery and a beginning to "growing up" in freedom. Yes, a freedom defined by the eternal context of creature to Creator, but no more restrictive than (to use the analogy) the relations of American citizens to the Constitution. The Constitution (again, sorry for the analogy which is very crude) established the possibility for freedom instead of slavery.

The events and story of the Exodus and beyond are entirely about man's desire to remain a child-slave and God's intense desire that man would grow up spiritually.

But do we want authentic freedom?

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), February 09, 1999.

There is so much I would like to say, however I will show unusual restraint and simply say: The Truth shall set you free.

Deborah

-- Deborah (onceaslave@sin.death), February 09, 1999.

Thanks all,

come on deborah - don't be bashfull, stick yer oar in!

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), February 09, 1999.

wow good info and some real diverse views!! what about the rapture a lot of christians believe they will not be here for those end times thou I am preparing I also hope.....

-- lbanks (lks@hotmail.com), February 09, 1999.

Pastor Chris,

You are absolutely correct. Many of his sermon transcripts are on-line, people can decide for themselves what they are about (God, comes to mind). I remember on a previous thread someone mentioned that he devotes a chapter to y2k in his latest book.

Deborah

-- Deborah (whoops@iwas.wrong), February 09, 1999.

People tend to become enslaved by their beliefs, desires, and possessions, including machines.

-- Jon (jonmiles@pacbell.net), February 09, 1999.

For the Tribulation thinkers think on this! The world has been in Great Tribulation for most of the Century. The Rapture theory is not a sound theory. Christians are supposed to be taken out of the world and then, with the Holy Spirit gone the Jewish people are supposed to evangelize the world? How could this happen? If the Jews are Christian then they would leave with all Christians and if they were not Christian how could they become Christian without the Holy Spirit?

When giving a prophecy of destruction please include the fact that after the dark days comes the morning as in the following...(Isa 35:3 KJV) "Strengthen ye the weak hands, and confirm the feeble knees."

(Isa 35:4 KJV) "Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompense; he will come and save you."

(Isa 35:5 KJV) "Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped."

(Isa 35:6 KJV) "Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert."

(Isa 35:7 KJV) "And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes."

Then Peace.

-- Mark Hillyard (foster@inreach.com), February 09, 1999.

Thankyou Pastor Chris. It's good to hear from you...

Mom

-- Mom (kitty@cat.com), February 09, 1999.

Andy,

I must take time first. I cannot post a knee jerk reaction. I will post here later.

Deborah

-- Deborah (prayer@closet.com), February 09, 1999.

Please remember "Christians" are not the only spiritual people on this planet and DO NOT have a "lock" on direct connect with the God Force, Creation or whatever you choose to call the "Force." Look around if you have eyes to see, and ears to hear.

Our individual trials are to learn how to walk gracefully on the path of guided spirit, within the power of Love, rather than hate, fear or judgement. We all choose our individual path. One works the other doesn't. That's the "lesson" we all need to learn. If not, then surely we will destroy this planet and harm our soul's growth in the process.

My "God" is NOT a God of vengenance, but one of peace and love. It is a creation force operating as a great teacher, who keeps giving us chance after chance to "get it" in many different ways. Y2K is just another lesson in a long, long series.

There are many paths up that mountain of enlightenment.

Which path do you choose to walk on this earth? Love or Fear/Hate?

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), February 09, 1999.

Uh, there seems to be some confusion. That was Pastor BOB who posted, not Pastor Chris. And thanks Pastor Bob for your contribution! And thanks Andy for starting this thread.

For those interested, David Wilkerson has two prophetic books that address the next few years:

America's Last Call

God's Plan To Protect His People In The Coming Depression

David

-- David (David@BankPacman.com), February 09, 1999.

Repentance is and always has been at the core of Christian thought. It is also first and foremost a PERSONAL act, then a collective act.

At the core of my belief (Eastern Orthodox) there has been a prayer for many centuries. It is the non-reducable statement of my Christian faith:

"Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner"

--Greybrear

ps - If God doesn't do something soon he sure owes Soddom and Gomorah an appology.

-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), February 09, 1999.

Greybear --- yes, personal first (by definition), then collective (maybe). Thank you. Indeed, one of the grave deceptions of our age is the handing over of personal responsibility to collective entities that offer to absolve us of responsibility. But these collectives are idols in the strictest biblical sense: they are "no-things" to which we bow down in defiance of the first commandment. The nanny state does it far better than Rome ever did.

Diane --- the Force and the Jewish-Christian God revealed by the Bible are indeed entirely other and even opposed to one another, as you point out so well. Thanks!

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), February 09, 1999.

Oh, and in regards to "many paths", don't be fooled, there are only two paths in life:

Matthew 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad the path that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

One path leads to eternal life. The other leads to eternal destruction. So what or rather Who is that small gate and narrow path?

John 14:6 "Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'"

Choose wisely . . .

-- David (David@BankPacman.com), February 09, 1999.

>>This is Satans wrath on an unrepentant people that God will allow to happen for our disobedience to Him as a people.

So God and Satan aren't at war, but working as a kind of tag-team? Or shooting craps for our souls? Kind of like in the book of Job:

Satan: Betcha that Job would curse your name if I gave him a real hard time.

God: Hmmm. Okay, you're on.

I just can't believe that God is that much of a prick. And if he is, we shouldn't encourage him with "worship." I mean, read "Leviticus:" God commands the Israelites to go into Canannite cities and "kill everything that breathes," including women, children and pets. I am supposed to look to this entity as a moral authority? I'm supposed to let this crap into our schools as the source and model of my child's ethical instruction? Moreover, this kind of highly emotional mythologizing really gets in the way of a clear-headed analysis of the current situation, as well as the crafting and implementation of viable solutions to our problems. I don't see it as that far removed, as a reaction to our current predicament, from going out and banging on pots and pans to scare off an eclipse of the sun.

That said, I believe in goodness, virtue, etc., and in introspection, humility and spiritual renewal. I also believe in a divine intelligence which pervades and transcends nature. But it is not a cranky old bastard, invented by cranky old bastards, demanding blind obedience and abasement from it's human property. Thank you for sharing, but that's your disease.

Now can we drop the God v. Satan/God & Satan v. Mankind storytelling and get back to surviving Y2k and making sure we don't all get stamped "Property of the State"?

E.

-- E. Coli (nunayo@beeswax.com), February 09, 1999.

I'm impressed. Red letter edition on the bulletin board.

Pretty cool.

-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), February 09, 1999.

E --- email me to discuss Leviticus, you might be surprised. BTW, God is very, very, very cranky at times (actually, wrathful). He's especially POed about the whole NWO thing and He intends to take some very specific and (to some ways of thinking) nasty actions at the appropriate time .... nastier than Leviticus.

Though these type of threads are understandably annoying to non-Christians, there are others that are annoying to us, ya know. Peace.

Our Christian mythology, if you'd like, leads many of the GIs on this NG to question corrupt authority (counter to the usual progaganda about our enslavement), prepare, help others and generally make sense out of Y2K noise, including propose solutions.

With a few exceptions (as you know, E, we comprise one of the most wildly dysfunctional families ever created), we don't want to impose a Y2K solution on you based on our convictions and are just as happy to give more credence to yours, providing it ... simply ... makes sense.

My point is that those of us who are Christians draw strength from one another's convictions from time to time on a given thread, but that ain't so awful. It will help us endure Y2K AND DO WHAT IS RIGHT ABOUT THE NWO THREAT that is so legitimately a passion of yours. And a passion of ours ....

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), February 09, 1999.

Well may be stirring up a bees nest here but commitment to Christ is not an easy thing, sometimes i feel that the most destructive thing today is this new found spiritulism without Jesus. It seem too easy to me to just think we are all ok and that somehow God is within each of us. God is kind and forgiving but there is no misunderstanding the scriptures the only way to heaven is thru him, all the good deeds and good thoughts are not going to get you there. He will get us thru this crisis probably not in any way that can be can imagined but that is what is what faith is all about. So i will continue to prepare for what I can and trust the rest to him.

-- lbank (lbk@hotmail.com), February 09, 1999.

E,

Man, if you don't use pots and pans to scare off an eclipse, what do you use. (We also add firing random shots in the air and honking car horns. But we are kinda new age folks).

Seriously, there are some of us out here to don't ascribe the the "war of the Titans" theories of religion.

However, long drawn out discussions of religious beliefs are best saved for other Boards. I am not in the least unwilling (and would enjoy ) sharing thoughts with you as we agree on an awfull lot of other things.

The bandwidth here is getting too tight lately.

-- Greybear

-Got metanoia?

-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), February 09, 1999.

You guys are the good ones. But I don't want resistance to the NWO and christian revival to become confused. If a christian revival takes the form of cleansing our communities of queers, abortionists, heavy metal rock, religions other than christianity, etc., then we will all lose. It's but a short step from claiming that the existence of homosexuals or abortion in our community is calling down the wrath of God and must be stamped out, to claiming that the existence of hinduism, or paganism does the same, and must also be destroyed (these are, after all, "counterfeit faiths," inspired by the Devil). Don't tell me that branding some groups the "enemies of God" is not a step toward branding them the enemies of the people, or the State.

It's not about switching from the Constitution to the Bible as the Supreme Law of the Land; it's about restoring the Constitution. Christians who believe this, as I do, need to make it clear to their more zealous brethren. Because I, a non-christian, hold in reserve the same "argument" for these folks that I do for any other enemy of the U.S. Constitution. I would sooner live in a socialist beehive than a theocracy.

E.

-- E. Coli (nunayo@beeswax.com), February 09, 1999.

Greybear and Big Dog, be careful or E. will think God has called the dogs on him. :~)

E. I think you are so on target with the conspiracy thing. If you want to meet your master conspiratist listen to Joel Skousen. He is interviewed by Art Bell on Aug 10, 1998. It is in Bell's archives. Revelation 13 reveals that the only way to escape the 'state stamp' is to suffer economic boycott or death. I expect to see you standing with us E.

Peace, Pastor Bob

-- BBrown (peace2u@bellatlantic.net), February 09, 1999.

E --- Yes, you have said this before on other threads and I will say what I have said before too: I agree with you 100%. Listen, I myself would have been drowned (say) by some of my own dysfunctional, yes, wicked family members 400 years ago.

Look, I stood at the bottom of that cross, yelling, "Crucify Him." Melodramatic, yes, but personal repentance starts with the recognition of that primal fact in and about ..... me.

While Christians as citizens may and should speak and act as citizens (Paul did this, for instance), history already demonstrates more than once the folly of trying to bring in the kingdom of God as a Christian empire/state.

If you'll forgive my mythology, the Evil One likes nothing so much as that confusion ......

Like any citizen, I may argue and fight (licitly, not literally) for laws about abortion or even homosexuality, based on my convictions, but I would hide homosexuals in my home or wear the same star rather than give them up to *any* pogrom, including a Christian one.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), February 09, 1999.

Greybear,

<< Got metanoia? >>

ROFL...ROFL!!!! Oh man, stop it, you're killing me! That made my whole day.

-- D.P. (dpalm@mwt.net), February 09, 1999.

E.

Our last posts arrived at the same time. In response to your last post, again I agree with you that I too fear a union of church and state. True revival never forces its will on others, neither does it seek to use civil law to legislate against sin. If alcoholism, drugs or homosexuality is removed, it will be because the Spirit of God has moved in a great way on people's hearts and revealed to them their sin... True revival has always restored marriages, families, healed social ills and restored moral laws, the foundation of a free society.

The NWO is inherently evil and opposed to our constitution. I will stand with anyone who seeks to uphold our great heritage.

Peace, Pastor Bob

-- BBrown (peace2u@bellatlantic.net), February 09, 1999.

hello

-- me. (this is true@please believe.com), February 09, 1999.

I am not using my real e-mail address.. I would like to tell you about something that happen to me about 25 years ago.I had a past life reading by a very spirtual man..I had been having some recurring dreams and didn't know what the meaning of the dreams meant..I sat down with this man and he sat opposite of me and told me to hold out the palms of my hands..he began to tell me about about a life that I had in Atlantis..he said that I was going to be sacrificed by a group of men.. they were taking me when suddenly I broke away and ran from them...I was running and running when suddenly I began to fly.. "You just took off and flew away" he said..I broke down at the reading and began to cry..I had this recurring dream about running away from this mob of people and each and every time I would take off and fly away!!! !!!I I swear to each and everyone of you that what I am telling you is true.. only my family know of this story but It is one of the reasons that I think that Y2k is really going to happen, you see he also told me of other lives that I had had as well.. He said that my soul has always been on earth during times of major catastrophe..and he said..(and this was the scary part) "It scares me that your soul is here again",I didn't think a lot about it at the time..I was young and thought that life was forever..I have had a lot of dreams that I will not talk about here and a lot of them have come to past..I still have the flying dreams .. but I can't help but believe that Y2k is more of a reality that I want to believe

-- me (this is true @please believe .com), February 09, 1999.

Me,

I believe that you believe what you just said. But I know for a fact that you have only ONE life to live.

Hebrews 9:27-28 "Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him."

Me, your entire experience with that palm reader was a demonic deception. If you genuinely desire to know the Truth and to be free from that deception and the grip it holds on you, then click on this link to a Christian forum. Post a question to let me know you're there. I'll respond.

Click Here

-- David (David@BankPacman.com), February 09, 1999.

Um, you've got the words of *Paul* in red there, David. Not like any red letter edition I've ever seen. Wasn't it Paul (Ephesians?) who said "slaves, obey your masters?" Very old testament. Very NWO.

What about John the Baptist being Elijah? Reincarnation for prophets only? Who was it who identified the baptist as the prophet...?

I have past life memories, that explain something about my character, but are otherwise unremarkable. My body even bears a mark from a wound recieved in a past life, and I have reason to believe that part of what I am doing here is resolving my conflict with the person who whacked me (whether I was "sent here to learn a lesson" or whether animosity binds people spritually even as love does, I can't say). I've stormed castles, I've built wooden ships; during WWII I was orphaned in Italy, and had a rough but interesting time of it(as a result, I have no difficultly in imagining that a vibrant civilization could collapse around me at a moment's notice, ala Y2k). I've been around here a long time. Demonic deception it all may be, but not in the way I think you mean, David.

"Me": I think I have a lot of aftermath to experience yet, because I used to bring it about, professionally, and I'm still getting some reverb from the karmic echo-chamber. The best thing you can do is keep your cool and try to help others, less familiar, deal with the shock to their systems. Maybe that's your area of expertise, and that's why you keep showing up in this particular "now"?

Many, many millions of people believe in reincarnation, and they've been studying the phenomenon for some 6,000-30,000 years, beginning with Vedic civilization. Christian fundamentalists are quick to lift their hind leg on this priceless heritage, but I suggest it be given a second look. A good start, with a variety of viewpoints, is the book "Reincarnation, the Phoenix Fire Mystery." Lots of accounts from both East and West, people famous and not, religious and not. Reincarnation is not particularly religious, any more than is birth, death, or going out for pizza.

My past life memories are pretty sketchy, but I don't think I'd have any of them if I didn't practice meditation. Which, as all good christians know, is merely an invitation to let demons enter your body. Yep, and there's a devil in every woodpile, sonny...

I love you bible-thumpers on this forum, and would be proud to join you in resisting socialist tyranny. And if you all don't rack me and burn me to a crisp for my impudence, I'll hang out, enjoy the clean living and good fellowship, and maybe even sing a few bars of "Rock of Ages" with you around the fire.

E.

-- E. Coli (nunayo@beeswax.com), February 09, 1999.

E,

BigDog just about summed it up for me too. I would add only two more statements.

My religous beliefs are the supreme values in my life. But my beliefs in the Freedom of the individual aren't very far behid.

Before I can get around to worring too much about the splinter in anyones else eye, I gotta get this dern 2x4 outta mine.

-- Greybear

- Got Faith?

-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), February 09, 1999.

Greybear,

If I ever convert, it'll be because of folks like you.

Got patience?

You do, and a sense of humor, like J.

E.

-- E. Coli (nunayo@beeswax.com), February 09, 1999.

Oh, sorry E, if you'd prefer, I'll switch to blue when not quoting Jesus Himself. Didn't really intend to emulate the red letter edition. Just trying to highlight the important stuff.

And 'yes', Paul did say "Slaves, obey your earthly masters." In fact, he said it twice. He understood that as a disciple of Jesus, we are first and foremost "slaves" to God. We lay down our lives to serve Him since He laid down His life to die for us. More than a fair exchange by anyone's terms. Our place in God's Kingdom is far more important than our lot in life. We have our eyes on eternity. And if being quietly obedient to an earthly master can be a strong witness to the love of Jesus Christ and perhaps lead that master to salvation in Christ, then remain obedient we must. It's a small price to pay to save the eternal soul of someone else. In one respect it is rather New World Order, but not in the way you mean. Once Jesus returns to establish His reign on earth, that indeed will be the true New World Order and submission and self-sacrifice will become the norm.

And 'no". No one ever identified John the Baptist as actually being a reincarnated Elijah. I don't expect you'll accept this, but the Old Testament was filled with types and shadows of things to come in the New Testament. Moses was a "type" of Jesus. Israel was a "type" of the church. And Elijah was a "type" of John the Baptist. One who prepares the way for the Lord. That same "type" will once again appear in the end of times as a witness to prepare the way for the Lord's return. Jesus didn't mean that Elijah was reincarnated. After all, just a short while later, he spoke to Elijah along with Moses on the Mount of Transfiguration. If Elijah had truely become John the Baptist, why didn't Peter and John recognize him as John the Baptist (whom they knew personally) and instead clearly knew him to be Elijah. I know, I know . . . you'd spin this some way to justify reincarnation, but remember the scripture verse I quoted earlier. There is no reincarnation.

And 'yeeessss', emptying your mind in meditation IS an invitation to demons. But I don't expect you'd believe anything I had to say on this subject either, so rather than continue an already way too long post, I'll simply say . . . while demons are not in every woodpile, they most definitely are in every vessel that deliberately opens themselves up through transcendental meditation, hypnosis, tarot cards, palm reading, channeling, astrology, oujii boards, etc. Such things were designed to call upon evil spirits. Why be surprised when they answer?

No Jesus, no peace. Know Jesus, know Peace.

-- David (David@BankPacman.com), February 09, 1999.

And now my faithful, the service has ended.

Go in peace.

-- INVAR (gundark@aol.com), February 10, 1999.

David,

Jesus was the final reincarnation of Adam.

-- Nathan (nospam@all.com), February 10, 1999.

Nathan, are you sure you don't mean "incarnation?" Big difference.

-- Gayla Dunbar (privacy@please.com), February 10, 1999.

Gayla,

I mean that Jesus and Adam were the same entity, the same soul.

-- Nathan (nospam@all.com), February 10, 1999.

Pastor Bob said David Wilkerson believes God is going to bring another crash because of the 'gay nineties.' If blame is to be placed on a group, it would be on adulterers and those who divorce and abdicate their responsibilities as parents.

-- (a@christian.too), February 10, 1999.

I knew by posting my message that it would create quite a stir.Thats why I didn;t use my e-mail address..All I wanted to do was share something that happened to me that was a force in my believing that we may be facing some very difficult times..I believe in God,Im not a tree-hugger,save the forest,New Ager.Im more conservative than not..I work at a bank .Im from a diverse background(my grandfather was Cherokee)The man that gave me the reading was not a "GET YOUR PALMS READ HERE FOR 20,00'' type..he was a friend of the family that everyone knew was connected..I have had some unexplained events in my life that I have not imagined.They were not demons..they were warnings that has perhaps saved lives of me and my family..no one will convince me otherwise.. for E..I was delighted that you answered my post..I have been reading this forum for a while and your posts always remind me of my boyfriend's way of thinking..I always call him to the computer and shout "look what E has posted this time!!" Good luck to all of You...

-- me (this is true@please believe.com), February 10, 1999.

Me, I didn't expect that you'd accept an offer of assistance, but I thought I'd extend it anyway. Spiritual experiences can have a powerful effect on people. I have several friends who started out with similar backgrounds. One studied in Tibet, learned to transmit heat throughout his body, read minds over long distances, forecast the future with some accuracy, communication with the dead, past life memories, all that sort of thing. He was even the subject of two paranormal studies at Harvard and Stanford.

All the while he was cultivating these very real experiences, he was constantly battling depression, fear and very disturbing dreams. Meditation only helped temporarily. In a pursuit of inner peace and hope, he dove in deeper trying to find "truth". At one point, he came to me (an acquintenance at the time) asking to know more about my faith (he seemed to think I had the peace he lacked). When I explained my Christian faith, he was interested and asked me to pray for him. I prayed a simple prayer for God to help him. Afterwards he said he felt relieved and actually somewhat "lighter". I was only vaguely aware of his background so I didn't think anything unusual happened.

Two weeks later, he called me somewhat concerned. It seemed that while he felt great, he was no longer able to perform any of his supernatural tricks and he wanted to know what I did. After he described what happened to him when I prayed, I realized that the demon(s) within him left. They were the source of his supernatural power. It never occurred to him that these things were rooted in evil. Once he understood, he was relieved to be free and 15 years later has never regretted it as he has found Jesus to be more than satisfying. Best of all, he knows now that he has eternal life with God.

Cling to your experiences and memories if you wish, but when you want to know the Truth, you need Jesus.

-- David (David@BankPacman.com), February 10, 1999.

My major problem with my Committed Christian brethren is the continued attempts to bring Christ's Kingdom to earth. Christ Himself said that His "Kingdom is not of this world". As one of our local pastors put it, "Isn't this just a LITTLE bit presumptious? This effort to create a Christian Country?" ( I can't type in the soft, broad Scotts burr he has, so you just gotta immagine it!)

As a Constitutionalist, I have a problem with those who want to establish a Christian State. I have the same problem with the ACLU when they take a city (Solon, OH) to court to remove the cross and open book from the city seal, where the citizens have voted (twice in the past year or two) to leave it. And teh same problem with the ACLU when they try to remove the State Motto from the State House here in Ohio ("With God, all things are possible")

to paraphrase the words of one of the most famous lizzards in the country, "Now what has THAT got to do with the establishment of a State Religion?"

After all, if you are a devotee of Kali, this translates as "With Kali all things are possible" doesn't it??

Chuck

-- Chuck, night driver (rienzoo@en.com), February 10, 1999.

I agree with you Chuck. In simple terms, the Kingdom of God exists wherever He is King -- that is to say, in the hearts of men and women who are obedient to Him and who submit to His Lordship. All previous attempts by "Christians" to establish a Christian state have resulted in some of the greatest tragedies in history . . . the Crusades, the Inquisition, etc. It is not yet time for that and it is not our responsibility to try to make it happen. In the Age to come, Jesus will return to establish the Kingdom of God over all the earth and He will rule and reign from Jerusalem. He is the only One capable of making it work. Attempts by Christians to try to pre-empt God's timing show themselves presumptuous and foolish.

-- David (David@BankPacman.com), February 10, 1999.

Thanks, "me", that's nice of you to say. I hope you and your boyfriend survive and thrive in the good old aftermath.

Here we have the classic "all religions other than mine are operated by demons" claim, in the form of a heartwarming anecdote of conversion. There is a similar claim made against christianity and judaeism by a certain variety of "gnostic" faith. They claim that the "god" of the Bible is not the real, ultimate God, but an intermediary intelligence called the "craftsman" or "demiurge." This craftsman took the infinite light/life/love/intelligence of the real God, called the "Pleroma" or "Fullness," and produced the Universe, and a hierarchy of "archons" to rule over it (sometimes identified with the planetary intelligences). This demiurge, via the archons, keeps us spiritually imprisoned, and altogether fouled-up, flustered and far from home. "Home" being with the Pleroma. The Gnostics believe that the Universe is a flawed creation, evidenced by the universality of suffering here. There are various theories about the demiurge; some gnostics think he's deliberately evil, some think he's crazy, and falsely believes himself to be both good, and the ultimate source of all life.So christians, too, are open to the "all other religions other than mine are demonic" charge. The reason we don't hear too much about gnosticism in our culture is that the gnostics were rounded up and executed in the first few centuries that christianity really hit it's stride. Which is not the most convincing way to refute a opposing argument, in my opinion.

Tibetan Buddhism is not about tumo heat-exercises, or clairvoyance, or knowledge and communication with various spiritual beings. All that is recognized by Buddhist to be peripheral to the central task of becoming enlightened, and helping others to become enlightened. These various powers, or "siddhis," can actually become a distraction, an ego trip, and an impediment to understanding buddhist teaching. The monastic Buddhist path, in which monks are sometimes trained to perform these unusual feats, is not for everybody. But everyone can realize the universality of suffering, develop compassion and patience with themselves and the people around them, and live a clean and balanced life. That's what the Buddhist path is about. Though western people sometimes approach it expecting to gain marvelous powers and insights. The reality is forgetting about yourself and what you want, and realizing universal compassion for others. Many are disappointed by this (understandably), and turn to the "faith of their fathers" for comfort. Nothing wrong with that, particularly, but I don't think we can reasonably extrapolate to the "demon" theory, on the basis of the above anecdote; there's just as much there to indicate that the powers your friend developed are natural to humans, (though perhaps he had difficulty managing them) and that your diety didn't want your friend to have them. His personal power, along with his critical intelligence, was the cost of admission to your faith.

Furthermore, Tibetan Buddhists realize that demons exist. They have their exorcisms, just as various Christian sects do. Buddhist also eschew strong drink, promiscuity, lying, theft, harming living beings, and so forth - or try to, generally speaking. Their moral system is admirable, functional and proven (reaching its hight in the Indian Kingdom of Asoka, I believe). As to Tibetan Buddhist practice causing depression, you have only to meet these people to see the radiant good cheer with which is perhaps the most readily apparent characteristic of the Tibetan people. I know several, and like them. I think it's important that we welcome them to our communities, since they got kicked out of Tibet when the Chinese Communists stole it.

But of course they'll all be put to the sword when Jesus comes, demonolaters that they are...

E.

-- E. Coli (nunayo@beeswax.com), February 10, 1999.

E wrote:

"The reason we don't hear too much about gnosticism in our culture is that the gnostics were rounded up and executed in the first few centuries that christianity really hit it's stride."

Uh, E, care to document this from some primary historical sources? Betcha can't.

-- Franklin Journier (ready4y2k@yahoo.com), February 10, 1999.

You have unleashed a lion, Franklin. I promise a separate thread on why fundamentalist christianity poses a threat to our life and liberty post-Y2k, and why it threatens to discredit and undermine any organized resistance to globalist tyranny. For you non-fundamentalists, I promise to make the distinction. It will include a fairly complete record of what fundies typically do to heretics, heathens and infidels when they're under pressure. Starting, but just starting, with the early Roman church.

The only difference between the brutality of prechristian Rome and postchristian Rome is that the christians didn't charge admission. Whether that represents spritual advancement or lack of business acumen is an open question.

E.

-- E. Coli (nunayo@beeswax.com), February 10, 1999.

I'm interested in what you bring to the table. I will not deny that there have been people executed by Christians (Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox) in the name of religion; it cannot be denied, of course, nor condoned. But almost always the picture gets skewed by those who have an ax to grind with Christianity in general or Catholicism specifically. Fundamentalists tend to up the ante trying to outdo each other in "documenting" the horrible crimes of the "Roman Church" to the point where the likes of Jimmy Swaggart has the "Inquisition" executing more people than the entire population of Europe at the time.

I have yet to see good, primary source documents that show that this kind of behavior was anywhere near as widespread as is commonly alleged at ANY time in the history of the Church. Be sure to include Edward Peters' book "Inquisition" in your studies. He is a non- Catholic historian who, through detailed research into primary source documents, shows that there were, perhaps, a few thousand sent by various ecclesiastical tribunals to the civil authorities for execution over the course of a few centuries. Bad enough, of course, but certainly not the genocidal pogroms we are regailed with.

Peters argues that the so-called "Inquisition" is a myth; there were inquisitions, of course, on local levels but there was no monolithic entity called "The Inquisition" responsible for the deaths of millions of victims. That is a product of anti-Catholic propaganda. And the inquisitions had a legitimate purpose; Church offices were infiltrated for political reasons and European states saw there a threat to their internal security (the link between Church and state being, as you and I will agree, all too close). The inquisitions were at times coopted for political purposes and became unjust in the extreme, but more than once the popes intervened to put a stop to these abuses. On balance, individuals would prefer to be tried in an ecclesiastical tribunal vs. a secular one; they had a much better chance of getting a fair trial. Check out Peters for copious documentation of this position.

There's a lot of historical revisionism out there when it comes to Christianity/Catholicism, hence my call for primary source documents to back up your claims.

Be sure to balance your view with the fact that secularists have been responsible for more deaths in this century alone than a thousand "Inquisitions" combined.

-- Franklin Journier (ready4y2k@yahoo.com), February 10, 1999.

"And Hitler was really a nice guy, once you got to know him..."

Franklin, you are a lot like the Germans, who, having not been taught their own history in school, now whine that they don't want to "bear the burden" of the Nazi era. No "acknowledge and move on" but rather "it wasn't really bad enough to concern ourselves about." Makes me think they'd do it again, under the right circumstances.

No christian pogroms? Tell that to a Jew. Explain how it was "political," not religious. Or how those people weren't "real" christians. Horseshit. I've seen fine, upstanding christian youth beat the shit out of a jewish kid in a rural American town, circa 1970, calling him a "christ killer." Their parents taught them that. Their preacher taught them. I view christian hate-mongering and violence as the historical threat that it is, I've grown up with it, studied it and I have no patience or mercy for it.

I suppose that the historical record of christian persecution is really like those troubling dinosaur bones: planted there by Satan to deceive us all.

Anything for Big Daddy, I guess: killing, torture, slander - or lying about history.

E.

-- E. Coli (nunayo@beeswax.com), February 10, 1999.

Gnosticism is still around, E. It's been refurbished and is now called the New Age movement.

There is nothing wrong with Buddhism. It strives towards the same goals as Christianity and other major religions. What's special about Christianity is its ultimate example of unconditional love -- Jesus Christ. That love of His has the power to complete the noble strivings found in many of the world's religions.

Unfortunately many who wear the name 'Christian' have only learned the role and have not experienced the reality of His love. That includes many 'fundamentalists.'

-- (a@christian.too), February 10, 1999.

E., please email me? I'd like to discuss something with you, but I swore to myself I wouldn't post on a religious thread again...oops..darn I couldn't help it this time, you don't give your email address!

-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), February 10, 1999.

Fine, E. I'm brainwashed and stupid and blah, blah, blah. Allegations are easy, but when you make them the burden is on you to back them up. You are long on allegations and short on evidence.

And in fact, I'm not denying that Catholics have treated others unjustly; I admitted it above. My Church does not deny it either; there's no hiding anything under the rug. My Church has formally asked forgiveness of various wronged groups -- Jews, Moslems, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox (apologies which, BTW, remain almost completely one-sided, albeit not because there is no need for reciprocation).

What I'm asking you to tell us is just what your allegations are supposed to prove. Do we determine the truth or falsehood of a world-view by taking a body count? If I can show that some members of some group or holders of a belief were also real creeps, is that supposed to automatically discredit the group or disprove the belief? Do you tolerate this kind of "argumentation" when it's used by whites against blacks? Or blacks against whites? Or Orientals against Hispanics? Or feminists against men? Or gov't flaks against militia groups? Or media wonks against Y2Kers?

As I've already said, anti-religionists are responsible for more deaths in this century than all the supposed religious inquisitions and pogroms of all previous centuries combined -- so I guess that proves that God exists, eh? You're committing a basic logical fallacy -- invalid extrapolation from the part to the whole. It's evidence of fuzzy thinking and you're not a fuzzy thinker.

That said, there's a boat load of historical revisionism when it comes to attacking Catholicism. So if you want to continue in this line, make your specific allegations and then back them up with primary source evidence.

But cut the unsubstantiated potshots and drop the double standards.

-- Franklin Journier (ready4y2k@yahoo.com), February 10, 1999.

Well, obviously you have your catholic panties in a kink because I mentioned the fact that christians have a violent history. As is clear, this was in a discussion about reincarnation, in which the reality of the phenomenon has been attacked. I mentioned that gnostics had been wiped out in the days of the early roman church, by way of explaining why we don't have a strong gnostic current in our society. I didn't even mention the slaughter of the Cathars, from which we get the well-known battle cry "Kill them all! God will know his own." Christianity is as strong as it is in our culture, in part due to the fact that all competing ideas were ruthlessly persecuted for centuries.

You ask what I'm trying to prove, then tell me what I'm trying to prove, then disprove what you say I'm trying to prove, all in the same paragraph. Go ahead, tie yourself in knots - what does that have to do with me? You must have had a jesuit education...

You say the Holy Inquistion didn't really happen, and not *too* many people were killed and tortured, and if they were, it was solely for political reasons, not religious. Then you demand that I write a book for you on the internet, using "only primary source material" to defend my accusations. Right.

You crow to high heaven about the fact that your church has magnanimously apologized to peoples that it persecuted (excuse me, *didn't* persecute); then you slam them for not apologizing back to you. Clearly, this shows me that you are morally superior.

I'm not trying to prove anything, not even the reality of reincarnation. If you don't believe in reincarnation, I'm not going to tie you to a post and burn you to death, all the while shoving a 3x5 card in your face that says REINCARNATION and shrieking at you to reverse your opinion or be damned to rebirth as a stink bug. If you don't want gnosis, it's your loss. "Me" was being told that her experiences were tantamount to demonolatry. That's an evil lie, and I said so. Then I explained why we don't generally recognize these evil lies as such more often in our society: the historical use of deadly force and the threat of deadly force to eliminate competing ideologies.

I hope the above explaination reveals more clearly to you precisely why you and the Pope can go f#ck yourselves.

If it's still not clear, check this out: http://www.artnet.net/~acharya/truth/

E.

-- E. Coli (nunayo@beeswax.com), February 11, 1999.

My take:

Direct Experience = Proof

Words used to convince/convert = Mental Masturbation

Carry on (with Love)!

-- Bingo1 (howe9@pop.shentel.net), February 11, 1999.

E, thanks for the link. She's cool!

-- Lisa (lisa@work.now), February 11, 1999.

I challenged you because you made a slanderous claim for which you gave no evidence. You still haven't. Is it just one of those things that "everybody knows" and so asking you to document it is beneath you?

C'mon, E, put up or shut up. Document your claim that Gnostics were slaughtered virtually out of existence by Christians in the centuries just after Christianity "hit its stride." Primary sources only, please. Or just retract it as unsustantiated; that'd be fine too.

Reread my posts, BTW, and compare them to what you claimed that I said. Your spin machine is working overtime.

And finally, I get my "catholic panties" in a knot when it's seemingly fair game to take pot shots at my religion. Notice the incipient bigotry that surfaces at times in these threads; folks like you can shoot off any charge you like about religion and its failings in the course of discussing who-knows-what, and then you whine that we're off topic when somebody steps up to reply to the charges. Stick to your conspiracy theories; you're interesting and coherent when you stay there.

-- Franklin Journier (ready4y2k@yahoo.com), February 11, 1999.

"Slanderous?" Sue me, you drip.

>>And finally, I get my "catholic panties" in a knot when it's seemingly fair game to take pot shots at my religion.

What color are they? Purple?

What a maroon...

E.

-- E. Coli (nunayo@beeswax.com), February 11, 1999.