Any Females (fella's too:)) out there who are familiar with handguns (revolvers/semi-auto's) please tell me how does one who has no knowledge of guns decide on a make/model? What factors should I consider before buying? Some basics: I live alone, over 30yr, in city(urban) area, connecting town-houses with plaster-type walls, no kids/pets to worry about getting hold of the gun, not very much uper body strenght. Which type of gun is best for in home use (i.e.-stopping someone from coming into house...without shooting bullets through 2-3 houses!)? I'm reading about the Kahr Arms (Lady K9), Smith & Wesson Model 49 Bodyguard, something by Taurus or Colt(uh...38 type)..in "Guns and Ammo" and "Handguns" magazines. ANY Suggestions? women, what do you use??

-- Nubian (tall_nubian@yahoo.com), January 24, 1999

Answers

for you, a 20 gage shotgun with game loads is probably best.

-- dave (wootendave@hotmail.com), January 24, 1999.

Nubian,

There is *no* perfect answer. Too much depends on other factors you have not mentioned.

Are you planing to stay in one place vs. having to bug out?

How much budget do you have available?

Do you have a place available and the commitment to practice - a lot?

What are the restrictions on firearms in the state where you now live, and do you care if you violate them?

BTW, your (self defined) lack of upper body strenght is really not as much of a factor as you think. My daughter was shooting in competitive matches with a .45 auto at age 9. It's all in the proper training.

The only general rule I could advise you on (with existing info) is that if you do decide to go with a handarm, go with a revolver.

And YES I know, all you waddies out there who like you autos, I am somewhat familar with autos. I've shot over well over 10k rounds through autos. But for a newbie the *only* way to go is revolver.

I predict you'll get several responses to this post. Unless the advise comes from an experienced person you should take it with a *large* grain of salt.

Greybear - who had been a firearms instructor for 25 years and competitive shooter for 30, with 3 state-level wins (actulally 2 were only 2nd place)

- Got ammo?

-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), January 24, 1999.

One of the best options for a hand gun would probably be a .38 revolver. I wouldn't buy one that had less than a 4" barrel for home defense. A lot of people like snub nose .38's (2" barrel) but the muzzel velocity suffers, as well as accuracy. The best weapon though, would be a short barreled shotgun (about an 18" barrel). A 20 gauge would probably be your best bet. Almost nothing is more intimidating than the sound of a shotgun chambering a round. If it is possible to scare a person away, a shotgun will do it. Also, it is much, much easier to hit your target with a shotgun.

I'm trying to find a link to a great site that explains the basic terminology relating to fire arms. I'll try to explain what I can. .38 refers to the inside diameter of the barrel. .38 inches The bigger the number, the larger the bullet is.

To make things more confusing, shotguns (fires a "shell" containing several projectiles, you can also buy slugs, but lets not complicate this) go the opposite direction. The larger the gauge, the smaller the barrel. The most common gauge is the 12 gauge. The 12 gauge is arguably the most devistating close to moderate range weapon availible to civilians. The 20 gauge fires a smaller shell but is very formidable. It doesn't hit as hard (the recoil is less pronounced) as the 12 gauge, but it is the choice recommended for women most of the time.

It is not easy to hit what you are aiming at with a handgun. If you buy a gun, you MUST practice using it. Trust me on this one. The first time I shot a handgun, I couldn't hit a bottle sitting 5 feet away. It is not like on T.V. and in the movies. If you are not willing to commit to firing it at a range at least a couple of times a month, a handgun is more dangerous to you than any potential adversary. A shotgun is a much better choice if you will not commit to regular practice.

-- d (d@dgi.com), January 24, 1999.

One of the best options for a hand gun would probably be a .38 revolver. I wouldn't buy one that had less than a 4" barrel for home defense. A lot of people like snub nose .38's (2" barrel) but the muzzel velocity suffers, as well as accuracy. The best weapon though, would be a short barreled shotgun (about an 18" barrel). A 20 gauge would probably be your best bet. Almost nothing is more intimidating than the sound of a shotgun chambering a round. If it is possible to scare a person away, a shotgun will do it. Also, it is much, much easier to hit your target with a shotgun.

I'm trying to find a link to a great site that explains the basic terminology relating to fire arms. I'll try to explain what I can. .38 refers to the inside diameter of the barrel. .38 inches The bigger the number, the larger the bullet is.

To make things more confusing, shotguns (fires a "shell" containing several projectiles, you can also buy slugs, but lets not complicate this) go the opposite direction. The larger the gauge, the smaller the barrel. The most common gauge is the 12 gauge. The 12 gauge is arguably the most devistating close to moderate range weapon availible to civilians. The 20 gauge fires a smaller shell but is very formidable. It doesn't hit as hard (the recoil is less pronounced) as the 12 gauge, but it is the choice recommended for women most of the time.

It is not easy to hit what you are aiming at with a handgun. If you buy a gun, you MUST practice using it. Trust me on this one. The first time I shot a handgun, I couldn't hit a bottle sitting 5 feet away. It is not like on T.V. and in the movies. If you are not willing to commit to firing it at a range at least a couple of times a month (I head to the range at least once a week, and I'm still not a great shot), a handgun is more dangerous to you than any potential adversary. A shotgun is a much better choice if you will not commit to regular practice.

-- d (d@dgi.com), January 24, 1999.

12 gauge shotgun is best for home defense. My sister just purchased a 12 gauge Mossberg. You can also purchase 12 gauges with detachable magazines. Purchase several magazines and have them loaded before hand. We have several hand guns going from .22 mag to .357 mag. I see guns as being good as gold and maybe even better. Stock up on ammo. There are several websites on the internet, one called Cheaper Than Dirt Ammo, and Cascade Ammo (they are in Oregon). We found that Cascade has better prices than Cheaper Than Dirt, and they delivered the ammo fast. But checkout both sites and compare prices. The SKS ammo through Cascade was very good. Good Luck! And please call your local Sheriff or Police Department and ask if they have any classes for gun safety handling for women. It was the best thing I ever did. And Diane Squire, just a foot note: I did see someone almost get shot! I was 7 years old and will never forget it. Everytime I saw a police man I would run and hide from panic because he was wearing a gun. At age 42, I took a course in gun safety to get over that fear. It was a hard thing to do, but I had to do it.

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), January 24, 1999.

I'll have to go along with the .38 Special in a revolver suggestions. You expressed a concern about it going through several walls and injuring someone unintentionally. For this I would recommend the Glazer Safety Slug. It is a bullet designed to fragment completely, delivering all it's energy to the target (intruder) and doesn't have the dangerous penetration that a regular bullet does. They are expensive, but you would only need a gun-load or two. Practice with regular ammuniton.

Gerald R. Cox

-- Gerald R. Cox (grcox@internetwork.net), January 24, 1999.

You'll want get significant practice and training from qualified individuals (i.e. not the salespeople).

Check to see if you have a local chapter of the Izaak Walton League in your area. Joining is only ~$70 per year and you should be able to hook up with several responsible firearms owners.

If you have no local Izaak Walton, then check with the NRA.

Both groups often have free or very low cost classes and can teach you a lot about basic safety and marksmanship.

Also, check into any available 'Concealed Weapons' classses that may be offered (These are often prerequisites to qualifying for a permit.) Often, you can sit in on (audit) these classes. I suggest this not because I'm encouraging you to obtain a permit but rather because such courses typically cover the laws in your state regarding the use of deadly force. You need to be aware so that you do not make a serious mistake. For example, in the state where I live, a private citizen may never use deadly force to protect personal property.

-- Arnie Rimmer (arnie_rimmer@usa.net), January 24, 1999.

Mossberg model 500 12 gauge shotgun with 8 round capacity. They cast about $200. at Walmart or Kmart. Buy light loads until you feel you want to go to more powerfull 00 buckshot. Safety is always important around kids. I have a steel gun "safe" (about $80 at Kmart) small price to pay for the safety of my kids. In a break in situation it would take me 15 seconds to get out of bed get to the closet where the guns are a retrive my shotgun. If it gets nasty after the first of the year, I will keep it out of the kids reach and loaded, but you would have to rack a round and take the safety off to fire it. My kids have been out shooting with me and call the shotgun "Daddy's loud gun" (they do wear hearing protection) they are scared of it. Be sure to let your kids see the gun with you supervision. Don't make it something to be curious about. Teach them how dangerous it can be just like you did with sharp knives or power tools.

Went out shooting this afternoon. That 00 buck is a devistating round. It is like shooting 9 .32 cal all at once. We shot empty small coleman type propane canisters. Ripped right through them. No misses at 30 to 40 yards. Hope I never have to shoot anyone with it, but if I do, that 00 buckshot will stop them cold.

-- Bill (y2khippo@yahoo.com), January 24, 1999.

As you can see, the preponderance of educated opinion favors a shotgun as the first weapon. For a handgun, consider a .38 Special revolver or the Kel Tec P11 (very small, concealable 9 mm.) ABove all, take a gun safety course and practice. If you can't (in your mind), point a weapon at a human and pull the trigger then forget the whole thing.

-- RD. ->H (drherr@erols.com), January 24, 1999.

I would stick with the 20 guage shotgun with #4 shot for use in complex. As for a handgun, maybe a .357, mainly because it will also shoot .38.

And by all (and any) means, get training to be a safe gun owner.

j

-- j (friend@thought.net), January 24, 1999.

Nubian--

Here's a good site to check out:

http://www.bev.net:10080/community/shawnee/gunbuyer.html

-- Scarlett (ohara@tara.net), January 24, 1999.

Nubian,

Here's another great site--the article includes discussion about handguns

RIFLE AND SHOTGUN FIREARM GUIDE Y2K http://forums.cosmoaccess.net/forum/survival/prep/battery.html

there are many other great articles at this site for y2k preparations

Y2K Survival Documents http://forums.cosmoaccess.net/forum/survival/prep/survival.htm

-- doug h. (dougie@aol.com), January 24, 1999.

Smith & Wesson .38 revolver. I found it relatively easy to hit the mark at distances used in household protection the first time I shot one. I have a 3" barrel because that fit in my hand better than a 4".

-- Gal (Gal@gun.com), January 24, 1999.

http://www.shooters.com/guntalkfeaturesframe.html

Try it, you'll like it.

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), January 24, 1999.

Gal,

Yer not sposed ta holdit by da barrel!!

Sorry, I couldn't resist the straight line.

c

-- c (c@c.c), January 24, 1999.

That was funny. I should have said that a gun with that size barrell was easier to handle. The 4" was too big.

-- Gal (gal@gun.com), January 25, 1999.

If you want answers to survival questions, go to the bible, Survival Guns by Mel Tappan. Very good book, written around 1976. It'll probably answer almost any question a person would have on the subject. The only missing info is on guns developed since then, which aren't really that many. I think Delta Press still stocks the book.

-- Noah Simoneaux (noaj@yournet.com), January 25, 1999.

A cut and paste from something I sent someone else. maybe it will help.....maybe not!

>>>>>>>>>>>>

Some thoughts I have........

Part 1: Firearms basics, and choosing a pistol.

Just to break people down into two groups (always a dangerous task) regarding guns. There are those who have and do, and usually won't care about my opinions on what they should have. On the other hand, we have those who don't but will soon want to. The big difference amongst the second group will be WHEN they realize they want them. Maybe, now, while they can still get them and can still learn to use them correctly, or later. Later, when someone is beating on their door screaming and their kids are huddling in the closet crying in fear while mommy stands there with a table leg in her hands hoping the nut case outside the door isn't better armed than they are.

Notice I didn't mention those people who say "I hate guns and gun owners and I'll never stand for one in my house and blah blah blah blah". Those people will be part of the second group, and almost assured to populate the second part of the second group.

I'll address these words to those of the second group , part 1. Those who don't know a lot about weapons but see a need right now to run full speed up that learning curve.

I'm going to give my advice on what firearms will fill the bill for a real basic kit. My qualifications? A lifetime shooting, former FFL dealer, former part time gunsmith, years of experience with accuracy work and precision ammunition and rifles. Tons of experience teaching novices and assisting in teaching classes. Notice please that I include no combat experience, no police experience, no 'been shot at' experience. I have fired, hunted with, worked on, loaded for, bought and sold, and cursed at just about everything legal for an American civilian to own that's less than an elephant rifle.

The first thing to realize for the newbies...This is not rocket science. It's technology that is centuries old and common sense applies in all cases. Lose the fear and think about them as tools. Simple.

Lets name our hypothetical newbie Gene. Nice non-gender specific name. (As an aside to female types that think they can't handle guns, my wife is a NRA certified instructor, and I have shot in cowboy and pin shooting competition against more than one woman who outscored me in embarrassing fashion.)

Gene wants some 'guns' to protect the family and just in case. You might as well forget about hunting. If it gets bad enough that people will fight over food stocks then the real hunters will take any game that's easy. That leaves protection.

Everybody out there that shoots has their own idea of what's right to own. It's like arguing Ford vs Chevy, a discussion I have seen reduced to blows on more than one occasion. Yes, people can be that stupid.

Look Gene, You have three categories to choose from in buying weapons. Pistols, rifles, and shotguns.

Pistols are obvious, you see them on TV everyday. They range in size from hidden in the palm of your hand to three feet long in a shoulder holster like 'dirty harry'. In all cases TV guns never run out of ammunition unless the plot calls for it, almost always miss unless you shoot two at once from the hip, and in every case can blow up a cars gas tank with one shot ricocheted off a mailbox. Think this is reality? Maybe you shouldn't own a gun then. Pistols come in two classes that you need to worry about. Revolver and semi-automatic.

Rifles: These are long guns, also called shoulder arms. They are meant to be held against you shoulder, aimed, and fired one shot a time. They will fire one bullet each time it goes off. They must be AIMED if you expect to hit something. The things that go BRRRAAPPHHTT and spray bullets on the tv shows? Those are machine pistols, assault rifles, and machine guns. You won't have a real use for them unless you intend to clear rooms full of aggressors or lay down some suppression fire. That's why criminals almost never bother with the them either. The distinguishing characteristics of a rifle that you need to worry about are the type of ammunition it takes and the type of action it has. In other words, how it works.

Shotguns: Think big bore, lots of projectiles, short range. Sure, you can get a slug gun and shoot one great big slug, but if you need a rifle then get one. A slug gun won't do the job as well. Shot guns come in as many action types as rifles, and a few bore sizes as well. What really sets them aside is the ammunition. Instead of one 123 grain slug at 2300 feet per second you can have twelve 50 grain slugs at 1000 feet per second. 'Grain' is a unit of weight when referring to projectiles. Bore size is confusing and done in ancient and arcane measurement. The 'gauge' refers to how many rounds balls making up exactly one pound that can be rolled down a bore that size. A '12 gauge' has a bore of a dimension that 12 round lead balls of that size would equal one pound. Confused? Yes, it's silly. Just remember that in any way you will care, a smaller 'gauge' is a bigger hole. On TV anyone hit with a shotgun blast fly's 9 feet backwards and dents the car they land on. On TV a shotgun can be fired with one hand around a corner and knock down twelve opponents in the hall way. IT TAINT SO! Shotguns require skill to use. You must practice. Just because the shot spreads to cover a wider area than a single bullet only means a miss is more embarrassing with a shotgun. Shotguns DO have a big fear factor built in. Most criminals think TV is real and don't like being on the wrong side of a shotgun.

Ok, there's the three types you need to worry about. What should you get? If you are in an area you can do it, get a pistol to start with. Why do I suggest that? Several reasons. Several good reasons. First and foremost, you are more likely to have a pistol with you when you need it. You can slide it in your pocket while you do dishes or take out the trash. (I have done both when situations warranted it). The biggest baddest super dooper assault rifle aint worth a poop if it's in the locked closet when you need it. The single most astounding fact about being in a gunfight is that you must have a gun! Does this sound harsh? Go read Infomagic III again. The scariest possible scenario is the one where a bad guy or two have you and your family trapped in a room and are figuring out lots of nasty things to do to you. Think they will let you keep a shoulder weapon if they are close enough to trap you? A pistol in the pocket of a parent seemingly scared silly, that they might miss. It might give you a chance to NOT miss them. A chance you might not otherwise have. Luck favors the prepared.

Sure Gene, you NEVER WANT to let a bad guy get that close to your family, but this preparation is like any other. Do what's most critical and work from there. Control your personal security starting from your body out. Closest is pistol range. Start with a pistol.

What kind of pistol? For a newbie who might be defending their families lives only one type makes any sense. That's a revolver. There's a simple reason this. Revolvers are simple! Single action revolvers require you to thumb back the hammer each time you want to fire, AKA cowboy style. Forget them for this purpose. Double action means you can either thumb the hammer back, or just leave it alone and squeeze that trigger. It will cock itself and then fire all in one motion. If you have a misfire, and that happens to EVERYONE and with EVERY type of firearm, with a double action revolver you just squeeze again to go to the next chamber and the next round. There are no safeties to mess with or get confused over. "But pops, aint not having a safety dangerous?". No, it's not dangerous. Revolvers are simple. If you squeeze the trigger all the way back it will go off. If you don't, it doesn't. Now THAT is safety. If you don't fire it, it won't go off. What about kids? Gun owners have the responsibility of seeing their tools stay out of kids hands unless supervised. No 'safety' in the world will help if the adult is not on the ball.

Ok, a nice simple double action revolver. Get a barrel length no shorter than 2 inches, and no longer than 4 inches. What's the difference? Actually a lot from the shooters side of the deal. Two inches means it will fit in your pocket easily, it will lay right in most ladies purses, and is therefor more likely to be with you when you need it. Other side of the coin, a short barrel pistol will have more perceived recoil and be somewhat harder to shoot accurately. Will this matter a lot? Not so much to a newbie. Lets face it, pistol range in a confrontation is about 7 feet. The accuracy difference between a 2" barrel and a 4" barrel won't matter much. The shorter barrel also makes it that much harder for a bad guy to grab the weapon from your hand. This is a real concern. A very real concern.

Caliber: once again, simple. Only one really good choice for Gene here. .357 magnum. (I can hear all those shooters out there getting ready to tell my why their pet .757 furlinger whiz bang magnum is the only real choice). Look, a .357 has a a great record of stopping bad guys and putting them out of action quickly. It's a common caliber, easily found everywhere you CAN buy guns and ammo. Best of all, you can shove .38 specials in it to practice with. (ignore the caliber designation, they BOTH have .357" bore. It's a case of marketer's in action, in other words, morons.) The .38 special is a decent defense round in it's own right, costs less, and has minimal recoil in a target load. My ten year old can shoot .38's all day long as fast as I can empty the boxes for him. Get some lessons from a shooter, find a place to go, and then shoot at least a few hundred rounds a month in practice. This won't make you good. It WILL get the reflexes down so you can load and shoot without fumbling too badly.

There is something you can do with a double action pistol that will improve your skill level a lot. You can do it with most any firearm, but it's easiest with a double action revolver. It's called 'dry firing'. It has nothing to do with a lack of water. It means practicing aiming and squeezing the trigger with an empty weapon. There are many ways to do this and build skill, but one of the simplest and best is to shoot the TV. When you are alone and watching TV (makes the news MUCH more enjoyable) practice aiming and firing at figures on the TV. Don't think of them as people, but as an electronic target simulation exercise. Practice counting your rounds as you dry fire. At the point you should be empty STOP and reload (pretend). Open the cylinder, dump the pretend fired cases, refill with pretend loaded rounds, close the cylinder and choose your next target. MAKE SURE IT'S EMPTY BEFORE DOING THIS!!! It's sad that I must say that, but my damn shampoo bottle has instructions on so I guess saying it is a good idea. If you plan on dry firing a lot (and you had better Gene) you should get a few dozen 'snap caps' to fit the pistol. These are plastic dummy shells made for dry firing. They have a mechanism built in to reduce the shock of dry firing to the pistol. That saves on wear and tear. Snap caps are usually bright red or orange so you can see they ARE dummies. They are shaped just like live shells and are invaluable in practicing loading and unloading.

How much ammunition should you get Gene? How much can you afford? That is how you look at it. You just CANNOT practice too much. Professional match shooters measure their practice in hundreds of rounds a day. It's nothing for them to shoot 4-500 a day getting ready for a big match. The more you have the less you will sweat shooting some up in practice. More to the point, the bigger supply you have on hand during good times (now) the more you are likely to have when trouble hits (soon). If you are serious, REALLY serious about this, you will measure your purchases by the case, not by the box. One thing that ammunition does even better than Gold is hold it's value. You can't go wrong by having a lot. Buy target ammo for practice, but also a good supply of what you plan on keeping loaded for defense. Every practice session should start and end with shooting exactly what you intend to be using for defense.

Ok, I didn't recommend buying a semi-automatic pistol. Why? Auto's are great, but not for newbies. Shooting for defense with an automatic demands a commitment in training and practice. Folks, there aint time. Sure, the Glocks are pretty damn simple and very reliable, but they still must be cycled to chamber a round, and they can still jam in inconvenient ways that become dangerous real quick in a fight. The Glocks are maybe the simplest of all auto's to learn, but there is still a learning period that is longer than a revolvers.

Auto's have safeties. Is the safety on or off? Auto's must have a round chambered to fire. Is the chamber full or empty? Auto's misfire just like every other firearm ever made. Are you skilled in clearing a misfire from an auto? Auto's can jam in ways that no revolver can. Are you skilled in clearing a stovepipe jam? In the dark by touch? Under stress? Every decision point you add is one more that can get you killed in a bad situation, or worse, a family member killed. SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE

There is no shame for a newbie in choosing a nice simple quality made double action revolver built with 100 year old technology. Many professionals still choose them for exactly the reasons I have presented.

-- Art Welling (artw@lancnews.infi.net), January 25, 1999.

I've never fired a gun in my life so I don't consider myself remotely close to an authority on this subject, but..

To load a revolver, you have to put every single bullet in individually. This would take time. It is undesirable to lose this time in a firefight. Also, revolvers only tend to hold six bullets (from what I hear).

But to load an automatic, you simply eject the old magazine and put in a new one. This may be a more difficult procedure than putting in the bullets, but it would probably take a lot less time. Also, since I hear that some autos hold 15 rounds, you would have to do this a lot LESS often.

--Leo

-- Leo (lchampion@ozemail.com.au), January 25, 1999.

Mr. Leo you can buy a speed loader for a wheel gun it holds 6 rounds eject spent rounds and insert a fresh load make sure it is made for your gun buy as many as you think you will need police use these sometimes you can load your gun almost as fast as an auto with practice good luck.

-- Bubba (Badhabbit@water.com), January 25, 1999.

Bubba

Leo will not be using any speed loaders any time soon. He lives in a country where the locals gave up their guns. For the public good, of course.

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), January 25, 1999.

If i were Leo i would move to a remote place for my own good a country with no guns is a country with no spirit sorry Leo but that is how i feel learn how to hide and avoid everyone it is your only hope learn to make edged weapons from flint or some other hard rock i think you can buy a book on how to do this a spear or bow and arrow can kill just as fast as a gun and it is quite good luck you will need it.

-- Bubba (Badhabbit@water.com), January 25, 1999.