I can get to most other pages but the NEWS page that I have as my default MARP link always times out without displaying the actual news frame. The top frame with all the links displays ok - assuming IE decides to paint it 1st, so I can link to most of the rest of the site but not all of it. Seems to be mainly the "static pages" that I have problems with. The generated pages are ok however.

Anyone else having the same problems?!

I'm against points leaching in principle, especially if there is very little risk involved to the player in doing it. However, for instance with Scion you can keep deliberately destroying your bombing ship and each new one you get scores you increasingly more points. However, the attacking enemy still continues to get harder so I think that one's ok. In Vulgus just after the second space stage there is an enemy formation that is always a bonus life. Its possible to keep shooting this down, getting the extra life and then die straight away so you can repeat the same section. This will allow you to get more points with each life and eventually build up lives based on score. This one is borderline because you're still at risk of being shot before you get back to the extra life formation. However, if we are going to permit Pterry hunting in Joust surely we should not prevent points leaching in any game without removing any Joust scores that used the Pterry bug. Likewise if we permit Pterry hunting why don't we permit the non-shooting bug in Galaga, or 255 lives in Mr Do and Sinistar, or points leaching in Ghosts 'n Goblins as all of these are simply making use of bugs in the original game. It could also be argued my score in Traverse USA (I prefer the name Zippy Race) should not count as I was not trying to get to 1st place but rather just points leaching by avoiding crashing and picking up as many fuel barrels as possible. The same argument goes for Road Fighter where you are better to collect as many 10k rainbow cars as possible rather than going for 1st place. The real problem comes down to deciding which techniques are acceptable and which ones are too obviously cheating and should not be permitted. Would anyone like to argue scoring exactly 100 extra lives on defender between 990000 and 1000000 points is a form of leaching as it effectively gives you 100 unwarranted (points wise anyway) extra lives?!

To summarise then, while I'm against leaching in principle who's going to decide what's not allowed and what's a valid point scoring technique for any given games?!

Time to get off my soapbox,

Cheers, BeeJay.

PS: Now back to practicising my Wonderboy playing because I've got some catching up to do !!!!!!! :-(

-- BeeJay (bjohnstone@cardinal.co.nz), December 29, 1998

Answers

no problems for me... (and more leaching comments)

MARP seems to be working okay for me, but I did notice the entire Retrogames collective (including MARP) was offline around 1:00am (GMT-08:00). As for the specific leaching comments, here are my views on each: Scion - This sounds resonable and acceptable, as you would still be playing the game as intended, and the difficulty continues to increase. More of a strategy than a cheat.
Vulgus - Very borderline issue. Since you slowly build up lives via the score growing, you could possibly play forever. I would lean on the illegal side of this strategy. I have noted another similar item below.
Joust - Pterry hunting (and similar techniques on other games) should be illegal - however, since there are multiple ROM versions of this game, and the trick can only be performed on the Red Label version, this could be allowed *only* on the specific version.
Galaga - The no-shooting trick should also be illegal (again, if there was only 1 ROM-set that supported this, then maybe). With the scores that BeeJay & Krogman are achieving *with* enemy fire, this is a moot issue IMO.
Mr. Do/Sinistar/Food Fight - All bonus life tricks (i.e. 255 lives), should be illegal.
Defender/Centipede/Xevious - The bonus life issues in these games were intended by the programmer's, and should be allowed. (Each of them awards 1 Extra for each point scored - this doesn't help much in Centipede, with it's 6 life limit).
Traverse USA/Zippy Race/Road Fighter - What you describe isn't really a trick, as it is a gameplay strategy. The object of these games is to finish each leg of the race and continue play for as long as possible, not to finish in 1st place.
Naughty Boy - It is possible to achieve extremely high scores on sitting along the top of level 2. This is well shown by the current top 2 scores for this game (mine included :p)
Roc'n Rope - This game also allows players to repeat a single level repeatedly to achieve higher scores (level 3). See the top 2 scores for this game (again, one of these is mine :p)

Alien Syndrome - It is possible to earn multiple extra lives in this game by using the "?" boxes. When the players' score is exactly 100,000, the game rewards the player with an extra life for these boxes. If you don't shoot any enemies, you can walk through the level, pick up 2 (or 3) lives, die, and repeat on your next life. I would consider this an illegal technique, if used for more than the number of "?" boxes on a level (i.e., you get 1 pass - then continue playing). I think that the best bet for these issues is to identify the techniques that are illegal (if necessary, removing existing scores from MARP), and maintain a listing of all illegal techniques. This is how Twin Galaxies managed it back in the old days (the players' were at the heart of defining illegal actions). Phew... that went a bit longer than I planned. I need to get that *other* Frenzy score now. Happy New Year! =Angry=

-- Angry (greggg@ix.netcom.com), December 29, 1998.

hey - that's what I said...

>> I think that the best bet for these issues is to identify
>> the techniques that are illegal (if necessary, removing
>> existing scores from MARP), and maintain a listing of
>> all illegal techniques.

Yup. So do you want to make a list, add it to your user guide and see if anyone wants to disagree with anything on it? Chris.

-- Zwaxy (zwaxy@bigfoot.com), December 30, 1998.

hey - I was thinking that...

I was going to start putting a list together when I get back home next week and post it in the users guide.

I'm going to base the initial listing from the games discussed in the various threads, if anyone would like to add anything, either post a message about it, or email me.

=Angry=

-- Angry (greggg@ix.netcom.com), December 30, 1998.

I'll help with the list.... [more]

Fellow MARPers,

I think this list of banned activities is the best possible approach. However, for suggestions that we are perhaps unsure about we should still post them on this board for discussion before adding them to Angry's MARP Users Guide.

What say you?

Cheers, BeeJay

-- BeeJay (bjohnstone@cardinal.co.nz), December 30, 1998.

The List

I'm all in favour of this list, however there needs to be a consensual vote of what is in fact illegal and what is allowed.

Continuing is definitely a no-no but thats been covered already.

If a player milks points and does it in a manner which still puts them at threat from enemies, and/or a time limit, then that should be allowed. For example, Black Tiger with the skeleton kills, or on Kung Fu Master floor 2 where you can rack up points by punching the dragons. Where these cases are taken to extremes shouldn't be allowed. Like Naughty Boy, where you can rack up huge points by staying in one place shooting with no threat to losing a life. Or Double Dragon, it's possible to reach enormous scores by whipping the enemy once for 500 points, over and over until the time runs out. As for games like Roadfighter (BTW good score Angry, I haven't played it for a while but I'll give it a shot one day), the objective is not only to come first, but to surivive each leg of the course. If you can do that while still milking any bonus points that may come your way then it's totally kosher.

As for games with original bugs, if a player is skilled enough to recognise and exploit them, then all the more to them.

Welp, its getting near New Years Eve.. time to get drunk!

Happy New Years to all MARPer's!

-- JSW (jwilson@sv.net.au), December 30, 1998.

The list entries should definitely be voted on.

Yup JSW I have to agree with you that the list should be voted on.

Now have a good New Years - well as good as can be had without an ice-cold can of good old CD (or Speights) to drink.... ;-)

BeeJay

PS: Hic(!) I've started celebrating already......... I wish !!!

(6 hours 28 minutes to go and counting)

-- BeeJay (bjohnstone@cardinal.co.nz), December 30, 1998.

who's going to...?

>> To summarise then, while I'm against leaching in
>> principle who's going to decide what's not allowed
>> and what's a valid point scoring technique for any
>> given games?!

I guess the best thing to do would be to have a list of what's allowed and what isn't in the user guide that Angry wrote (available by clicking 'Help' in the top frame). As for actually making the decisions, it seems like there's usually a majority opinion on this board, don't you think? There's probably a common-sense solution to most of these dilemmas. Chris. (your democratic (or is that 'gutless'?) webmaster :o)

-- Zwaxy (zwaxy@bigfoot.com), December 30, 1998.

hehe, the sinistar 255 live bug...

i forgot all about that :) but i wouldnt use it, although it has happened by accident (it does that :P) its just onw of those BUGS tha happen...anyone who exploits that (or other like it)...well...we all know ^_^

KROOL insert coin(s) and prey

-- Krool (kellyq@ihug.co.nz), December 30, 1998.