My apologies for originally posting this in the wrong forum area. I was unaware of this one.

For those of you who have been asking about EOS 3 availability...

The good news is that they are now available with shipping starting yesterday. They should be at some dealers (those that placed orders) by next week,

The bad news: quantities are very limited. A store may get one, two or three IF they have ordered them. If a dealer has a waiting list (and most of the larger ones do), the initial allocation will be immediatedly gone. Your best bet is to call around to local dealers. A spot check I did around the midwest and south showed many dealers didn't even know about the shipments going out. Definite lack of communication.

The worse news: $1399 seems to be the street price. The EOS 3 was supposed to be priced between the A2E and 1N but is actually much more expensive than the 1N. Even dealers are upset at this.

A warning: There have been thefts overseas of EOS 3 bodies. While I doubt gray market will be available soon, I would be very wary of getting one that's not been officially imported by Canon USA.

And, of course, remember that it's not the camera that takes the photograph, the photographer does.

Hope I got this right this time.

-- Dick Ginkowski (dickg@execpc.com), December 17, 1998

Answers

I don't know if Peter thought he was being helpful, sarcastic or what. He may not know that the history of the EOS 3 project and the issues of concern are not "junkie" oriented. I say this having been aware of the project for a couple of years and having provided input. While Peter's attempts at wit and wisdom aren't entirely off the mark, they would be more appropriate with some understanding of the history and policies surrounding this.

Simply stated, the A2E is the oldest camera in Canon's lineup. Not bad...nor is the 1N. But there were a number of design inconsistencies which needed to be addressed, such as the functions available when shooting horizontally but not vertically. For power users, there are not inconsequential or "junkie" points. The EOS 3 was delayed several times so the demand isn't just from "junkies" here.

As for price, supply and demand isn't exactly at issue here. The EOS 3 was supposed to be price pointed between the 1N and A2E. Historically, when a price is dropped significantly, as in the 1N's case, then there is justifiable speculation about its potential upgrade or replacement. The problem is that the 1N's street price dipped below the anticipated street price of the EOS 3. A portion of this can be attributed to supply/demand factors but Canon didn't announce final pricing to its dealers this week.

Before labeling those interested in the EOS 3 as "junkies", Peter should have done his homework. This is a model that's been long awaited and for good reason. (Yes, there are "junkies", TO BE FAIR.) For the record, I've needed the improvements to be consistent with my shooting -- and I've had some problems with my 1N that I'd like to have Canon service resolve. I've also been waiting for the EOS 3 so that I won't have to rely on my backup while the 1N is in the shop.

Junkie? Hardly.

-- Dick Ginkowski (dickg@execpc.com), December 17, 1998.

Dick, Thank you for your posts here, which are of interest to many of us interested in this long-anticipated camera. I would ignore Peter's silly remarks; he is behaving like a smart-ass jerk, and those who reads these posts will see that for themselves.

-- Dave Kemp (Kempda@worldnet.att.net), December 18, 1998.

Hi, I just want to remind those who are interested in EOS 3 but at the same time owning a number of inexpensible third parties lens. The latest issue of PP (GB) has found incompatibility between EOS 3 and non-HSM Sigma and Tokina. Tamron lens are spared.

-- E. Ung (ung@chevalier.net), December 18, 1998.

I gather some posts must have been removed from this thread since it doesn't make any sense as it stands.

I really don't see what Dick's point is. If you don't like the price, don't buy the camera. Isn't that what the free market is all about? Why cry about it? If everyone said "Hey, Guys, this is way overpriced so I'm not buying one", I think you'd see a price drop pretty fast. Of course that won't happen. There's so much hype these days they could sell you just about anything, needed or not.

As for actually needing an EOS-3, with the implication that somehow Canon have done you wrong, that's close to ridiculous. You said yourself it's the photographer, not the camera, that counts. What makes you think an EOS-3 will succeed where your other $1000+ camera body has failed you. Do you actually remember the days before autofocus and totally automated operation. It's such a pity that nobody back them was capable of turning out decent images. Put another way, have your skills dropped to the point that you now can't turn out decent work without the very latest automated wonder in your bag?

I think the "junkie" analogy is pretty good. It's not a need, it's just a craving for whatever the latest toy is. I'd like one too, but I don't need one and I'm not going to buy one. If the price drops significantly I might think about it again, but I won't go to bed crying about it if it doesn't. I doubt my photography will suffer either way.

-- Will Johnson (willyj2@aol.com), December 18, 1998.

Dick - What's the big rush to be the first on the block with the latest gear? In 6 months the price will almost certainly drop to a more reasonable level. If you fork out $1400 now, that's your problem. Let's hope they don't bring out an EOS-2 soon, or you'll have to remortgage your house or sell your children.

Canon are in business to make money. They're not stupid and they'll price their gear at the point at which they expect maxmium return on their R&D investment over time. Just what else do you expect them to do? They make their money by keeping you wanting their latest offering. Whatever you buy, there will be a better one a year or two later. You'll go crazy (or broke) trying to keep up with them.

-- Paul Enis (pde2@locus.net), December 18, 1998.

Very interesting to see these posts -- and frustrating.

I was communicating information of interest to many photographers. The response is to bet barraged with idiotic posts about camera junkies, pricing schemes and the like. I am aware of all of these considerations.

The "street price" is a matter of interest to dealers and consumers alike and there is no gouging per se in that street prices typically run 2/3 of list -- so the street price here would be $1340. $1399 would not be seen as gouging. And it should drop a little with time, of course, just as, say, the F5 did. Canon orginally said it would be priced between the A2E and 1N and this is of concern to dealers in that the street price of the 1N is way less than the new model (a historical signal that upgrade of the 1N may not be too far off).

This is information for information's sake, not debate and ad hominem attacks.

I think I made it perfectly clear the specific need I had for the new model and that's enough said.

If people continue to post stupid personal attacks and silly comments, then nobody will want to share information which is the whole purpose of this board.

Grow up and get a life.

--And Peter, use your real name and real address and don't be a coward!

-- Dick Ginkowski (dickg@execpc.com), December 18, 1998.

Why should dealers care what the price of anything is? All they do is sell it. If the market is there, they make a profit. Who cares if the EOS-3 is more expensive than the EOS-1n. If it's a better camera, buy one. If it's not, buy a 1n? I can't to see what point you are trying to make, other than Canon "broke their promise", a "promise" I presume they never made in the first place. What difference would it have made to anyone if they'd said the EOS-3 would be more expensive then the EOS-1n?

Why don't you just go and take some pictures instead of complaining about a camera you are obviously going to buy anyway, no matter what it costs?

-- Photobuger (photobug@hotmail.com), December 18, 1998.

I've deleted some posts already, and am tempted to delete a few more. I think the post is for information only, but I have to say that after reading the specs on the new camera when they first came out, I couldn't see it being less expensive than the current 1n. I could be wrong, but I didn't notice a single area were the 1n had better specs, and in most cases it was worse. I would expect an update of both the 1n and EOS 5 within the next year or two, but who knows.

As for the price, I normally don't see the MSRP for cameras, but I seem to remember the Elan IIe being around $850-900. It can easily be had for $400-450, after the initial rush died down, so maybe 1/2 MSRP would be more accurate than 2/3. If this holds true for the EOS 3, I expect the price to come down to somewhere between $900-1100 in the next year or so. We'll just have to wait and see.

Okay, I just looked it up. The EOS 1n has an MSRP of $2400, and the A2e is $1150. The source I have didn't have the price for the EOS 3, but I have read something like $1900. Sounds like the dealers ARE gouging to me!

-- Brad (reloader@webtv.net), December 18, 1998.

Once again, Photbuger and anyone else, my post was for information purposes only.

Dealers *do* care because the price affects what they can buy and resell their merchandise. They also care because the #2 camera, officially, in the lineup is selling to them and us for more than the #1 camera after they (and we) were told that it would be something else. This will have some impact on dealers and consumers.

Any camera model is usually a little more expensive when it's first introduced. The F5's street price was originally $2795 or so and then it went down $100-$200 in a few months.

Also, Canon's pricing depends on a number of variables. Canon provides dealers with a co-op program where there is a relatively "fixed" price. This means that a local dealer can often sell you Canon merchandise at the same price as one of the big dealers for USA warranty merchandise.

The price issue isn't of concern to me because I can afford it and it's not much more than the anticipated street price of between $1200- $1300. It may be of concern to others and certainly is of concern to dealers who can't sell merchandise for less than they pay for it.

-- Dick Ginkowski (dickg@execpc.com), December 18, 1998.

Dick - to quote you "They also care because the #2 camera, officially, in the lineup is selling to them and us for more than the #1 camera after they (and we) were told that it would be something else"

Why are they so upset? What are they going to do, impeach Canon? Here's a solution. The EOS-3 is now #1 in the lineup and the EOS-1n is #2. Simple. Problem fixed. That was easy.

Then you said "The price issue isn't of concern to me because I can afford it and it's not much more than the anticipated street price of between $1200- $1300"

All this whining for under $100? The way you were talking I'd imagined that you were expecting a price well under $1000.

I agree that Canon users should boycott the EOS-3. Those paying the asking price just compound the problem and make it (and EOSs to come) more expensive for the rest of us.

-- Woody (wgardon@iname.com), December 18, 1998.

I think the pricing issue of the EOS 3 and 1N is a simple one of offer and demand. This is a basic marketing principle not confined to the camera market only (look at the computer industry for example). Canon and the dealers anticipated that the arrival of the EOS 3 will seriously reduced the sales of the 1N. Who after all will buy an older camera with lower specs at a higher price than a newer model with better specs. The problem is not so much the price of the EOS 3. Considering the specs I will buy it for $ 1399 and not feel ripped off. For dealers to ensure that they don't sit with stock of 1N cameras the price dropped considerable and this process stared long before the EOS 3 actuallty arrived. If you are smart you may anticipate this fact and buy a 1N at a bargain price. Simple as that. Why will I buy a EOS 3 (and I will)? It is for one reason only: autofocus at f8. Now I can use the 2x TC on my 300 f4L and 1.4 TC on the 500 f4.5L with autofocus. Now if any person tell my this is not justified that is his opinion - I have made my desicion.

-- Nico Smit (nico@anp.co.za), December 19, 1998.

According to EOS magazine (published in Great Britain), the EOS 1N has a few "pro" features the EOS 3 does not. The 1N has a 100% viewfinder, the 3 is 97%. The 1N has a built-in eyepiece shutter and built-in dioptric correction and the 3 does not. The 1N has a 2.3% fine spot metering function, and the 3 does not. The 1N also has a max flash sync of 1/250 vs. 1/200 for the 3. The 3 has a host of functions the 1N doesn't have.

My opinion - As for Canon replacing the 1N, I figure the market will dictate the timing. As soon as 1N sales drop, it will be time for the new model. The Nikon F5 didn't convert all the Canon pros to Nikon as many predicted, so a new "flagship" was not needed immediately. The EOS 3 will satisfy the market for a while, even with the high price. I am wondering what features the EOS 2 will have to have to be considered the new "flagship" when it is released. Either way, I doubt I'll be able to afford it anyway.

-- Larry (lwh385@aol.com), December 19, 1998.

>>>I think I made it perfectly clear the specific need I had for the new model and that's enough said.

you're going to pay $1400 for vertical eye contol focus? (vertical eye control is the only thing i could find in your posts (maybe one of the deleted posts has more things you're looking to get with the eos 3?)) AF at f8, and a dedicated dof preview button seem more "important" to me.

and i'm not sure about one thing. is the LIST price of the eos-3 higher then the 1n? or is it only the street price? canon can't do much about the street price. think about beenie babies. the list price is <$10, but i see people selling them for >$1000.

P.S. you can get vertical eye control with the elan II, if that's really the "only" feature you're looking for.

-- Sean Hester (seanh@ncfweb.net), December 21, 1998.

Sean must be a diehard AF user by now because his eyes are shot. He missed the following from a previous post:

" and I've had some problems with my 1N that I'd like to have Canon service resolve. I've also been waiting for the EOS 3 so that I won't have to rely on my backup while the 1N is in the shop."

(One problem with the backup is that while they're both EOS cameras, the controls and features are so different that it's tricky to use both in a shoot without consciously having to do a reorientation to the other body. The EOS 3's controls are similar enough to make it more seamless to the 1N.)

Now that we've laid to rest the totally irrelevant reasons who I bought (and now have) the EOS 3, I'd like to turn to something quite appropriate that Sean pointed out: the Elan II/II E.

For most people, the Elan series cameras are as much or more camera than they'll ever need. (I rarely suggest Rebels to anyone because they're so easy to outgrow without being able to recoup your investment.) The Elan series is what I strongly recommend except for power users. I use an Elan for more-or-less "snapshot" purposes and it's likely that I'll get rid of the A2E now that I have the EOS 3.

I have yet to really get into the EOS 3. I just got it. I'll say that it has, for the most part, the look and feel of the 1N which is good. Canon was chintzy with the strap and too cheap to throw in a battery. The manual is more like a mini "field guide" as opposed to the typical booklet type manuals. Those who had input in the project thought this was supposed to be the replacement for the A2E. The features are so extensive that Canon should have gone the very short rest of the way and made this the 1N's replacement. One reasonable fear about the EOS 3 might be that it has too many features as to make the learning curve a bit tricky.

Let you all know more when I get a chance to put it through its paces which probably won't happen until I drive down to Canon and drop off my 1N for repairs.

-- Dick Ginkowski (dickg@execpc.com), December 22, 1998.

i probably wouldn't bother to answer this if not for the mild insult intended by:

------- Sean must be a diehard AF user by now because his eyes are shot. He missed the following from a previous post:

" and I've had some problems with my 1N that I'd like to have Canon service resolve. I've also been waiting for the EOS 3 so that I won't have to rely on my backup while the 1N is in the shop." -------

while i am a diehard AF user, and may get my first pair of glasses soon, i didn't miss that sentence. i didn't include it my list of features you want in an eos-3 because it seems to me that if you can get a 1N for LESS then an eos-3 (which you imply (i haven't checked myself)) then that would make a 2nd 1N make a better "backup" for a 1N then the eos-3. exactly (as opposed to similar) controls for less money makes for a batter backup in my mind. this only leaves wanting the eos-3 for OTHER reasons then a backup. (eye control being the only one i found)

but, more important then all that. let me (us) know how you like the eos-3. i have an eos-5 and am wondering if i should upgrade to the eos-3. since i've never used a 1N, the eos-3 isn't in any way a step back for me, it's a step up. the only thing i'd miss is the built in flash. i'm an "available light" buy myself so i don't usually carry around my big flash. and having the built in one comes in handy for times when i absolutely NEED it.

-- Sean Hester (seanh@ncfweb.net), December 23, 1998.

Well, Sean, I got the EOS 3 Monday but haven't had time to get into it (nor get my 1N down to Canon because now my car is in the shop; those transmissions will get you every time).

The look and feel is very much like the 1N -- a big plus. You're right about no built-in flash. It would have been nice to have something to use for fill without having to slap on an external unit.

In fact, the built-in flash is about the only thing I like about the A2E (EOS 5). I have one but never really liked it. Had I known how much I would like the 1N (particularly ease of use of controls and the stable "balance" and "feel" of the 1N), I would never have purchased the A2E.

I would say that if you don't have a specific need for the EOS 3, I would wait a couple of months to see if the price drops. Of course, you could always take advantage of the 1N specials right now, too, if the upgrades with the EOS 3 aren't your cup of tea. (I would note that I never use my ECF on the A2E and won't on the EOS 3.) A lot of my wildlife work is vertically shot, so the EOS 3 will be more helpful there.

Personally, I'm not bitching about the $1399 price tag but must say that for that money, they could have thrown in a battery!

-- Dick Ginkowski (dickg@execpc.com), December 23, 1998.