I've been going back and forth on the issue of whether to apply for a concealed weapons permit (license to carry a concealed pistol). It will be a necessity to carry a sidearm if TSHTF, and you might as well do it legally, right? Can anyone see any downsides?

-- Tom Sawyer (tomsawyer@fence.net), December 07, 1998

Answers

My impression is that to justify an application for a permit to carry a concealed weapon, you have to provide evidence that you need it. Folks in Texas may have no problem -- elsewhere, it might be a hard sell.

-- Tom Carey (tomcarey@mindspring.com), December 07, 1998.

If TSHTF, will the legal system be able to deal with it anyway?

-- Bill S. (Bill_S3@juno.com), December 07, 1998.

WTSHTF you think the people who mean to do you harm will first show you their CC Permits? - ....:)

And they will also violate the CCP terms and conditions by pointing one of their CCP firearms under your nose?

Nah - use your common sense.

Very few states allow it anyways, otherwise go for it.

-- Andy (andy_rowland@msn.com), December 07, 1998.

Tom, if you are in New York, and NOT in the NYC/LI area, and they have NOT changed things, you do not need to show need, or t least I didn't a number of years ago. You just go through the hassle of the fingerprinting, and the references signing all 3 copies, and the interviews with the guy from NYSP-BCI.

Chuck

-- Chuck a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), December 07, 1998.

Tom: I don't know what state you live in, but 31 of the United States have right-to-carry laws (up from just eight in 1985). Most of those are "shall issue" states, meaning they _must_ give you a license to carry barring evidence of a previous criminal record, mental problems, etc. In Vermont, you don't even need a permit -- any law-abiding citizen can carry concealed. No I'm not NRA, never have been, but I did some research after learning that Maine (my home state) has one of the lowest crime rates in the country and the highest per-capita gun ownership rate in the country, with the possible exception of Alaska. Vermont's crime rate is even lower -- or was, I haven't seen the latest FBI stats.---------

UChicago law professor John Lott did a study in 1996 showing that states that liberalized their concealed weapons laws saw an immediate drop in the crime rate, in particular crimes of violence against women. HCI has been trying to discredit him ever since, without success. I repeat -- I am not NRA, don't even own a pistol, but facts are facts.

-- JDClark (yankeejdc@aol.com), December 07, 1998.

Just as an FYI I beleive "they" issued 2 CC permits last year in San Francisco.

Like gold dust (sorry for that:o) )

-- Andy (andy_rowland@msn.com), December 07, 1998.

If you're a really "paranoid" type, having a CCW/CHL permit guarantees that you're listed in some state-gov't database as a gun owner. Some people don't like that.

A few states allow people who have a CCW/CHL permit to be exempted from the NICS background check when purchasing a firearm, which is a benefit considering how overwhelmed the system was last week when it came on-line.

Just MHO, but there are reasons other than Y2K to carry a concealed weapon.

-- Melinda Gierisch (gieriscm@hotmail.com), December 07, 1998.

Just as a practical addendum, if you are going to carry concealed, make sure you know how (what holster) and what guns lend themselves to this mode. I favor a Kel-Tec P11 or a Glock 26. Avoid trying to carry a .357 revolver with a six inch barrel! Further, practice at the range removing your gun from its concealed position and coming to a ready position. Lots of technical details here. Just be sure you thoroughly understand your weapon. And whatever you do, never let it out of your control. Safety first.

Locked and cocked for Y2K!!

-- RD. ->H (drherr@erols.com), December 07, 1998.

I think it would be unwise to make a decision about carrying concealed weapons based upon the assumption that civil (or military?) authority will vanish and no one will judge your actions later. Carrying a concealed weapon without a permit outside your own yard is a felony in most places, so even if you get in a situation where there is an imminent threat of death or grievous bodily injury, youre already a crook before you even point it. Remember Bernie Goetz?

I spent 6 years armed in response to a very specific threat,(now passed), and did not like it. I was afraid when I had a gun and afraid when I didn't. it took 9 months to get a permit. (Where I am, they do have to issue it unless theres a good reason not to, but the cops dont like it and they see no need to hurry. Cant really blame them.) I only ever drew once on a loser busily beating his wifes head against the pavement at a convenience store. Thank God he stopped when I challenged him: 10 minutes later, while the paramedics stabilized her for transport, wifey had _me_ arrested for reckless endangerment. (Thrown out by the judge, but a major hassle.) That was an education, and 3 cheers for reasonable cops. But imagine if I hadnt had a permit? I would have been arrested and probably convicted. My life ruined.

ABSOLUTELY try to get a permit. But first get and read Massad Ayoob's "In the Gravest Extreme" for an excellent overview of the practicalities and legalities of being armed. You MUST have already decided to kill people if necessary. IMHO, if it doesn't make you feel ugly, you either haven't understood the question or enjoy it too much to be healthy. You MUST practice, particularly with hand guns. The law is very strange. There are precious few situations where you can "legally" shoot someone and the repercussions are intense. (BTW, in my state, you can shoot someone to stop them from committing suicide. Honest.)

Something I noticed when I was always carrying a weapon, is a tendency in myself and others to believe that carrying a gun somehow gives you control over dangerous situations. It's easy to see how american popular culture encourages this illusion. I learned, (eventually), that this is false. Being armed does NOT give you control over the outcome of a dangerous situation. It does however make you RESPONSIBLE for the outcome. Think about it. We should all check out the new Utne reader site on Y2K. It's a much healthier perspective. (http://www.utne.com/y2k/index.html) Y2K is certainly an issue we all would like to have some sense of control over, so I think the interest in weapons by people who would normally never otherwise consider them is to be expected. And, perhaps, feared.

One last thought: for every hour you spend practice shooting, spend at least the same time community building. Good neighbors are alot more likely to save your ass than good groupings.

-- Lewis (aslanshow@yahoo.com), December 07, 1998.

Great advice RD and Lewis.

Lewis, you've hit on every point I would have said only you did it far better than I ever could have.

Mike =====================================================================

-- Michael Taylor (mtdesign3@aol.com), December 07, 1998.

Hi Tom,

dunno where you're located, but here in Virginia we are a 'right to carry' state. You need to have a clean police record, be able to show proof of training (i.e. the course completion certificate for the NRA Personal Protection course, or equivalent), fill out the appropriate application, let them take several sets of fingerprints, give all of the above plus 50 bucks to the clerk at the police station and wait about a month or so until your permit comes in the mail. In other words the application process is no biggee.

Carry, on the otherhand is another matter. If you hold an attitude similar to Lewis' I'd recommend you do NOT carry - carrying out of fear engenders responses similar to his own (btw Lewis, unless you could prove that the woman would have been seriously mamed or killed if you hadn't intervened [-very difficult-] your actions might well have been deemed illegal in this state). Lewis is right to the extent that a firearm is not a magic wand, but anyone who is afraid to carry, shouldn't be carrying to begin with...there are several groups of people with whom I will not associate when they are armed, and those who fear that which is in their possession are one such group.

If you're thinking of carrying please, PLEASE get as much training as possible in the time remaining. It does NOT work the way it's shown in the movies - and get out to the range at least every other week for some target practice. Most importantly though, sit down and think through when and how you might need to use lethal force...consider what effects such actions will have on yourself and your loved ones, and then decide whether or not this is an appropriate course of action for you to consider.

oh and yo! RD...my preference is a 1911A1, though granted I gotta be a little careful how I sit sometimes...:-)

Arlin Adams

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), December 07, 1998.

Yeah, and teh Glock Mod 22 is a bit@h to sit on, too. In reference to a long scrolled away thread, I finally exercised the Hi-Point 9mmP carbines that tari and I picked up. Nice grouping, target re- aquisition post shot was very easy, and she had no problem getting the piece to off-hand in a hurry. However, the first couple of mags through, and the first couple times for each mag showed a distressing tendency to not feed the first round, though this seemed to clear up. Now, we gotta make sure that we've exercised all of the mags for the critters. Also, seating the mags is a "better double check" thing.

You get what you pay for and these were certainly affordable, though I wouldn't consider them agrssive assault capable, though I really didn't wring them out against repeated fairly rapid fire...........

"Dear, we gotta go to Stonewall this weekend........."

chuck

-- Chuck a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), December 08, 1998.

Arlin Adams wrote: >Carry, on the other hand is another matter. If you hold an attitude >similar to Lewis' I'd recommend you do NOT carry - carrying out of >fear engenders responses similar to his own Arlin, Im not sure I understand what you meant there. What other reason _is_ there to carry a gun besides the fear of death or grave physical injury? At the time, I was living every day knowing that several specific people had a very strong desire to kill me, (too.). Have you ever been in a similar situation?

>btw Lewis, unless you >could prove that the woman would have been seriously mamed or >killed if you hadn't intervened [-very difficult-] your actions might >well have been deemed illegal in this state). Your preachin to the choir. Shooting people is a risky business.... My point was that: I think it would be unwise to make a decision about carrying concealed weapons based upon the assumption that civil (or military?) authority will vanish and no one will judge your actions later. Any use of weapons has to stand up to a shifting definition of reasonableness. At the time, her screams and the blood on the pavement made my response seem pretty reasonable to me. More importantly, I believed that I had no other options available (no cops, no help, he was a big angry guy) before he whacked her skull on the cement one more time and killed her. But youre right; I would have had to prove all that in court, and I _might_ have failed. Again, have you ever been in a similar situation?

>Lewis is right to the extent that >a firearm is not a magic wand, but anyone who is afraid to carry, >shouldn't be carrying to begin with....there are several groups of people >with whom I will not associate when they are armed, and those who >fear that which is in their possession are one such group. I suppose a response to this would require a dissertation on the definition and purpose of fear but frankly I dont have the energy to get into it right now.

>If you're thinking of carrying please, PLEASE get as much training as >possible in the time remaining. It does NOT work the way it's shown >in the movies - and get out to the range at least every other week >for some target practice. Most importantly though, sit down and think >through when and how you might need to use lethal force...consider >what effects such actions will have on yourself and your loved ones, >and then decide whether or not this is an appropriate course of >action for you to consider. Absolutely. Well said.

I dont own a handgun these days. Just the Mossberg 590 12ga. At this point, I honestly dont know what to do about carrying a gun day to day. It is an intensely personal decision as Arlin alluded to. Id be interested in comments from folks (Arlin?, anybody?) who are currently carrying regularly.

Namely: Why do you do it?

Regards

-- Lewis (aslanshow@yahoo.com), December 08, 1998.

If you carry, target practice at the range isn't enough. This is, in the immortal words of Mas Ayoob, "ballistic masturbation". What's needed is much more realistic high-stress training programs, they exist, search them out.

Perhaps better than carrying, for some people, is wearing body armor. Get Second Chance, most wearable, still legal. But it's like a seat belt, you got to do it all the time. Otherwise, the time you don't, ... Doesn't protect the head, but head is a hard kill zone to hit. Remember most people are really bad shots with handguns (spend 10 minutes watching most people at your local range!) Under stress, group sizes double or worse.

If you are carrying in order to protect OTHERS, that's a horse of a different color. Remember, it is possible to protect others even though unarmed, if your spirit is strong. Witness the wrestler who took down the high school gunman (yes, he was shot, non-fatally. But he did the job). Ultimately, whether armed or not, all you have is your spirit.

Personally, I think the guy in Alas, Babylon had a good rationale for carry in post-apoc situation.

-RC

-- Runway Cat (runway_cat@hotmail.com), December 08, 1998.

Arlin, upon further reflection, I realized that I may have misunderstood your comments. I apologize if I did.

I think you were refering to two different fears: -Fearing attack by others -Fearing your own weapon

I responded to the first point, but not the second. You are absolutely right. Being afraid to touch your own gun is the best way to generate alot of very unhappy paperwork. (Ludicrous images of Don Knotts in "The Shakiest Gun in The West" cross my mind...)My original comment about how " I was afraid when I had a gun and afraid when I didn't" referred to my whole situation at the time. The gun did not make me less afraid of being attacked. But after training thoroughly, I did not fear my guns. But ONLY after training thoroughly. A gun is not a fashion accessory. The comment you hear echoing through every thread on this subject is: don't do it unless you are willing to spend the time getting competent.

Anyway - Talking abut guns always depresses me. The fact is that if TSHTF, none of us will be in a familiar situation.

There is a saying in psychology : -Insane behavior in a sane environment is insanity. (Jack the ripper) -Sane behaviour in an insane environment is insanity. (Nero fiddling) -Insane behavior in an insane environment is sanity. (M.A.S.H.) We'll need to judge ourselves and our environments carefully.

-- Lewis (aslanshow@yahoo.com), December 09, 1998.

Hi Lewis,

sorry it took so long for me to get back to you on this thread...your second interpretation was the one that I thought you meant...sorry.

as to why I carry, there are a couple of reasons:

right now I live in a small apt in a lower middle class neighborhood. While this is still a fairly respectable place to live, there have been incidents. as a firm believer that God expects me to make use of what he's given me to take care of myself and those for whom I might be responsible, CCW is a reasonable action, especially if I'm going to be returning home late in the evening.

then there's the fact that sometimes I know I'm going to be travelling with folks who have *no* selfdefense capacity (kids, for instance) but who would be targets for predators of the human variety. Then too it's my responsibility to provide the best protection I can.

thirdly it is my profound belief that the right to keep and bear arms is exactly the same as the rights to free speech, freedom of the press, trial by jury, and all the rest - rights are like muscles, either you exercise them, or eventually you lose them.

Arlin

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), December 12, 1998.

Hi Arlin- Thanks for your thoughtful post. Sounds as though you "searched your soul" before choosing to be armed. Wise.

I also live in a mixed middle-class area, but I find it's not the image of me defendeing against an being attack by an anonymous looter from Elswhere that disturbs me. It's desparate neighbors. Could I really shoot the guy I used to borrow tools from? It's too surreal sometimes.

Prepare for the worst: yes, but I really have to focus on hoping (and working toward) the best.

Thanks to all of you for an interesting exchange.

Lewis

-- Lewis (aslanshow@yahoo.com), December 12, 1998.

Lewis you are a breath of fresh air in this matter. Most gun carrying advocates here sound like right out of a John Wayne movie. You're obviously very responsible and don't look at guns as a badge of manhood, but for what they really are; a dangerous tool not to be used by just anyone, for whatever situation.

-- Foreigner (.@...), December 12, 1998.

Thanks, Foreigner. I've just never gotten past the fact that a gun is a machine for destroying life. I know that there are alot of regional/cutural influences on how one views guns, and this just happens to be my perspective based on my background.

We all have demons in our basements, I guess.

-- Lewis (aslanshow@yahoo.com), December 15, 1998.

The whole concept of weapons is almost alien to my psyche. It took me almost a year to look at a gun in a magzine or in Gun Digest. It took me four tries to even walk into the local sheriff's office to ask for the paper work to a carry concealed permit, and several more to take the paper work back. Since then, I have acquired one handgun, and two rifles, and will probably pick up one more handder. Once I purchased a .22 revolver, it sat in my safe for nearly a year before I could get up enough gumption to even buy ammunition for it. Finally with the help of a relative I learned how to load, and fire, and the saftey involved. As I practice with the weapons, they still scare me to death(in the same way driving a car on a crowded expressway does--except that they is less worry that someone else will kill me) I got into this because I don't know what will happen. Studies have shown that in 97% of cases involving potential violence, simply showing a weapon will stop the violent actions. Only in 2% does it need to be fired,and only in 1% does it need to be fired in the direction of someone, and only in .5% does it need to be fired at someone. I have a permit. I can just barely imagine using it to actually carry. I've learned to enjoy target shooting. I don't hunt, but knowing I could takes some of the fear out of y2k. And knowing that I could if situations became more worse for worse than I can presently imagine, I would be able to protect myself, and my family--or at least look to others like I could. Carrying a gun in a concealed position means that you are willing to draw it to shoot someone. I believe in my state its illegal to draw a concealed weapon to help someone who is NOT in one's immediate family(unless you are a policeperson). I am not willing to shoot someone yet--I hope I never will be. But doing the gun thing is just a small aspect of preparation, and besides, 100 years ago almost everyone in the country knew how to shoot. I try to think of it as another foxfire craft. But I know deeply that it is a much much more. Glenna

-- Glenna Kamoroff (kamoroff@hotmail.com), December 15, 1998.

Glenna, you might be interested in the article on "Girls and Guns" (written by a woman) in the current issue of "Liberty" (libertarian publication) on newsstands everywhere. She makes a strong case for all women learning guns.

-RC

"The second amendment is no more about duck hunting than the first is about Scrabble." - John Ross

-- runway cat (runway_cat@hotmail.com), December 15, 1998.

Many states do allow "open carry".

I, and others, will have to use good judgement at what point this will be "socially" acceptable, or more accurately, neccessary.

I'm not particularly concerned about "concealment" from a Y2K perspective.

I did wish my state ("Wisconsin") had "shall issue" legislation. But at least this past fall, we got a strong amendment to the state consititution re-iterating the "right to keep and bear arms".

-- Year2000Watcher (year2000watcher@hotmail.com), April 06, 1999.

Is it Missouri that is voting today (or tomorrow) on CCW? Does anyone have the outcome of that vote?

BTW, my wife and I both are licensed for CCW, but we only carry when we expect to be spending any time in a high-risk area (which is as little as possible).

-- Cowardly Lion (cl0001@hotmail.com), April 06, 1999.

Missouri Votes Down Concealed Permit Measure

-- Blue Himalayan (bh@k2.y), April 07, 1999.

thanx, BH

-- Cowardly Lion (cl0001@hotmail.com), April 07, 1999.

You may soon be able to legally carry with an out of state permit here in Florida - you might as well be armed, since all the residents are.

I haven't gotten a CWP yet, although I am considering it. Florida makes it pretty easy, as long as you qualify (no felonies etc). The one thing that bothers me though, is that not only is your name in a state database, but it is also a matter of public record. Interestingly, you don't need to have a CWP to carry a loaded gun in your car - as long as it "is not available for immediate use". Keeping it in a holster (with the strap fastened across the hammer) qualifies as not abvailable.

Out-of-state gun permits closer to being accepted

A bill to make other states' concealed weapons permits valid in Florida withstood an assault from Senate Democrats on Tuesday.

The Senate passed the measure (SB 954) on a 20-10 vote and sent it to the House.

The House approved a similar measure (HB 229) on an 89-29 vote, but the two chambers must resolve their differences before the legislation can move on to Gov. Jeb Bush.

A similar bill passed by the Legislature last year was vetoed by Gov. Lawton Chiles, who said weaker licensing standards in other states would result in too many visitors being armed. That argument resurfaced on Tuesday from Democrats in both chambers who are against the proposals.

-- Online2Much (ready_for_y2k@mindspring.com), April 07, 1999.

Talked to relatives in MO this pm, apparently the antigunners put out a series of television commercials stating (among other things) that issuing concealed carry permits to adults would result in children taking guns to school...anyway the difference in the vote was a total of 4% (52 percent/ 48 percent)...*sigh*

I have never understood the thought processes of hoplophobes.

Arlin

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), April 07, 1999.

I'm Lucky, I live in a shall state, Oregon. I have applied for the CWP Concealed Weapons Permit, and expect to get it without trouble. I am a lawabiding citizen. The only problem with this CWP is that the criminals couldn't care less about it. A criminal will not apply for or get a CWP and will carry a gun anyway. I am getting one in order to legally defend myself against these LOWLIFE thugs. When guns are made illegal, only the criminals will have guns.

-- Richard (Hondacon@cnnw.net), June 01, 1999.