The 60 Minutes show was a complete joke. After the obligatory kindergarten expalanation they had that butthead John Koskinen pointing fingers at everyone else. He was being critical of the foreign air traffic control systems . That way he would not have to talk about how badly the air traffic , airport, airline situation is in this country. They then had that blithering idiot Ed Yardeni blathering about the 'possible' recession'. Towards the end they had some schizophrenic idiot saying that although nobody knows what will happen, he' knows' that it will not be a catastrophe.

The show was more typical claptrap, pollyanna misappreciation and general mildness so as not to upset anyone. Heaven forbid they say anything at all that would upset anyone. The upshot of this show was this, it will have done NOTHING to give anyone the idea that preparation is necessary and every reason for them to blow Y2K off. At most, Y2k will be an inconvenience for a couple of days.

If you were waiting for public sentiment to turn, it will not be as a result of this show. This is more reason why the panic will be so bad when it occurs. The longer it goes before someone with GUTS stands up and says the sh*t is going to hit the fan, the worse it will be.

It is already too late to avoid a disater but a few more people could have been ushered to the lifeboats. Its not gonna happen. All of the unprepared are going to be rushing for the doors at the same time. I might as well get used to it. Nothing but nothing is going to get through the wall of denial and sheer stupidity of the masses.

I am pretty well convinced now that they deserve what is going to happen to them. There are people in positions of responsibility in our government that EASILY could have sounded a clear warning. They have utterly failed in thier responsibilities. The population has relied upon the system for their very lives. They have put all their eggs in one basket. Oh, I will still try to warn people, but I have no confidence it wil be of much avail.

The majority is going to get wiped out. No question about it. If this is a picture of what our so called ' information society' is capable of, if they can not see from the 'information' that we are facing a catastrophe, then I say "Good Riddance".

We can start again. When all the idiots are gone.

-- Paul Milne (fedinfo@halifax.com), November 29, 1998

Answers

Yeah, but Paul, what do you really think?

-- bill dunn (bdunn@snet.net), November 29, 1998.

If I were a stockholder, I would demand the facts from any corporation in which I have invested. If I depended on Social Security to survive, I would demand a guarantee in writing from the government official that signs my check that I will be able, one way or another, to get my normal benefits on time. What I fail to understand is exactly what you believe the government should do? Does the Government tell you when to wipe your a*s?

-- M.D. (MD@here.com), November 29, 1998.

Paul, I would rate myself a '10' on the disaster scale, but I must disagree with you. By your own definitions, we are unfortunately still in the crawl stage of a crawl, walk, run situation - for the masses, not for you or me. If we say, on the one hand, that we cannot convince folks that this has the potential to kill them, we must at least understand our own criticisms that there has been ***NO PRESS OF CONSEQUENCE*** to help us convince the masses that there is even a problem. This 60 Minutes beginning was just that, a beginning.

Further, there is still the element of panic and its prevention. All things considered, though you and I might agree that it is too little too late, it was presented in a rather straight-forward fashion - short of a "run for the hills, it's too late" mentality. How do you suppose that would have played to the public tonight?!

Let's see where the major networks go from here. Keep the faith, Paul, if you are fully prepared, then perhaps it's time to try to lessen the threat from the stupidity of the masses>. You can't have it both ways.

-- Bob Walton (waltonb@kdsi.net), November 29, 1998.

Well, Mr. Milne, what did you expect???

Did you think the media would sound a 'clear warning' that would bring down the markets and begin a collapse of the banking system via cash demands??? Is that what you would do?

Or maybe it might be a good idea to consider breaking it to the sheep gradually. Maybe preparation will proceed at a sustainable pace, huh? Maybe give them a heavier dose in a few weeks.

Sure, I don't think these egomaniacs have any right to dole out information as they see fit, but that's the ship we're on. The general population has been dumbed down and apatheticized to that point. Face it; the average Joe couldn't or wouldn't prepare even if he had the whole picture. So in light of that, I think it's probably best to bring the sheeple along on a leash. The rest of us that know the score will be able to accomplish as much as we need to. Eagle_1

-- Eagle_1 (eagle1@thecrossroads.com), November 29, 1998.

I think that Paul is naive if he thinks "60 Minutes" is going to go off into the gloom and doom camp on their very first program about y2k. On the contrary, since this popular, prime-time, show represents the first real information about y2k for the average listener, it was more supprisingly accurate. Sure, all the right questions were not asked. But Paul, you've got to lead people along little by little if you want to change their opinion, especially when it comes to something that has such devastating implications as y2k. Patience Paul patience. The story will unfold in it own good time...sure it is already too late for the vast majority to do anything, Nothing really changes, the stupidity of IT managers to allow the continuation the two-field date proves that.

-- Dr. Roger Altman (rogaltman@aol.com), November 29, 1998.

Paul: Did you expect them to go from zero to TEOTWAWKI?

Sure, it's needed and many of us hoped that they would, but did you actually expect that? With all due respect Paul, it could have been the "don't worry, be happy, bump in the road pollyanna stuff"... instead we got people's bank deposits being 'deleted', medicare at risk, ATM's not working, the FED printing an extra $50 Billion in anticipation of panic withdrawals, the possibility of no electricity, water, etc. This should have been on a year ago, but it wasn't. If it was, then maybe we would have been told tonight what we know needs to be told.

-- Rob Michaels (sonofdust@net.com), November 29, 1998.

Do not ever expect a major reaction. Most people lead a plodding, unthinking, existence. If they think of anything on Sunday evening, it is of what they face tomorrow. They will only run if they see the monster coming down the street. This is best for us. It gives us the most time. Stay low and out of sight. And KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT.

-- curtis schalek (schale1@ibm.net), November 29, 1998.

You last two guys are out to lunch. This is not the time for a 'begginning'. We should already be in the END STAGES of Preparations. And no it is too late to break it to them gently. You guys are a bunch of lamos. You do not warn someone of life threatening situations by goning up to them saying, "Gee, Sir, I mean, if I wouldn't be too intrusive or damaging to your self-esteem and if it would not be destructive of your geo-political paradigm, might I say that ..."

No, you cockamamie morons. When there is a fire you shout, "FIRE". If the assholes want to sit and argue about how bad the fire will be, and that no one really knows if the fire wil get here or not, then let them. Let them burn to death like the assholes tha they are.

You are typical of the mollycoddling morons that we read so much from. It is sickening. Ooooh don't inflame people. Don't harm their delicate sensibilities. Carefully word your message so that they will 'accept' it.

Screw you two and the horse you rode in on. If you want to play ladies tea party games, then go play. This is life or death. There is not enough time left to even get a marginal number on board the life boats and you morons want to namby-pamby around.

If you tell people that a fire has broken out and their life is in danger and they scoff or poo-poo or don't look into it, they DESERVE what they get. We don't have to waste our time modeling our contentions so as to be as acceptable and palatable as possible to these macaroons. You tell 'em there is a fire and then move on. You give them good reasons and evidence to believe they need to do something. You answer their questions. The ones that are honest will ask questions. The ones that are dishonest IMMEDIATELY begin with the excuses. Screw them. There is not enough time. Not enough time to play silly games with denialists. They deserve what will befall them in their calculated ignorance.

So *you* go ahead and 'pretend' to be serious and mollycoddle the assholes. What you just do not understand is that there is NO TIME LEFT. I spend every day making preparations. I have been doing this for a year. And *I* will not have enough time to get done all that I want to accomplish.

There is not time left for assinine games. There is no time to say "Let us word our messages to avoid panic at all costs". That is bullshit. What we NEED at this late juncture **IS** panic. And I think that you understand what I mean by that. Not screaming and yelling. Frenetic Activity. NOW!

-- Paul Milne (fedinfo@halifax.com), November 29, 1998.

I think those of us following this issue so closely were bound to be disappointed. We hear a little buzzer going off when what is called for is a full blown air raid siren.

Still, I'll be very interested to know what, if any, impact this program had on those people you've all been trying to warn.

One point I strongly agree with both Paul Milne and Ed Yourdon on is that the longer this is ignored, the worse the situation becomes.

I think the 60 Minutes program would have been extactly right 2 years ago, but today, although fairly accurate as far as it went, it lacks the urgency which is now required. I'm just thankful that it didn't take the 'complete pollyanna' approach. But like speeches before congress, I don't think it will have much impact one way or the other.

But let's see what those around you think...

-Arnie

-- Arnie Rimmer (Arnie_Rimmer@usa.net), November 29, 1998.

http://www.bergen.com/news/survive2519981101.htm -- Back to low tech Sunday, November 1, 1998 By LOUIS LAVELLE Staff Writer

"My own mother thinks I'm psychotic," he said. "I have seven brothers and sisters. Not one of them thinks anything's going to happen."

"http://www.bergen.com/news/survive2519 981101.htm" Seven years ago, Paul Milne was a successful commodities trader living in Somerset County. He had a Cadillac in the garage, three children in private school, and a Little League team he coached on weekends.

Today, he lives on a 10-acre farm in rural Virginia, where he raises cows, hogs, and rabbits. He grows vegetables, churns his own butter, and makes his own soap. He has enough food to feed 20 people for two years.

And he says he will kill anybody who tries to steal it.

Paul Milne is a survivalist. He believes that at 12:01 a.m. on Jan. 1, 2000, a programming quirk known as the millennium bug will bring many of the world's computers to their knees. As a result, the power grid and telecommunications networks will fail, plunging the world into silence and darkness. The international monetary system will collapse, causing a worldwide economic depression. Food and water will be in such short supply that riots will turn cities into urban nightmares. Governments will be powerless to restore order. People will die.

His dark vision is shared by thousands in what may be the largest apocalyptic movement in U.S. history. Although they represent a minority among survivalists,their numbers are growing, and across the country they are buying farms, stockpiling food, and preparing for the day when, they believe, anarchy will be loosed upon the world.

Most people think the millennium bug, also known as Y2K, short for year 2000, will cause minor inconveniences, and they dismiss the dark predictions of survivalists as alarmist rhetoric. Nobody knows whether the survivalists are delusional, dangerous, or the smartest people on earth.

"The bottom line is this," Milne said. "If I'm dead wrong about this and I made all these preparations, then on Jan. 1, 2000, the birds are chirping and nothing's changed. I'm going to live. If you're wrong, you're dead. If you have no food, no power, no sewage, and no water . . . you're dead."

The time bomb that Milne and others believe will strip away the thin veneer of human civilization and expose the savagery beneath is ticking all around us.

This much is known: In home computers and in those that control everything from traffic lights to weapons systems, dates for the most part are designated with two digits -- "98" for 1998. When Jan. 1, 2000, arrives, some of those computers will interpret "00" as 1900 and start making mistakes.

What happens next is anybody's guess. Credit cards and ATM cards may be rejected. Social Security recipients may not get checks. Air traffic control systems may fail. And if embedded computer chips succumb to the problem, VCRs, elevators, even hospital life-support devices might not work.

Fixing the problem -- by rewriting billions of lines of computer code -- and the liability that will arise from computer failures are expected to cost more than $1 trillion. And most experts agree that with just 433 days remaining, there is no way to ensure that all the critical computer programs on which the modern world relies can possibly be fixed in time.

Because of their fear of the fallout from these computer failures, survivalists are going to extraordinary lengths to make sure they get through the first few years of the 21st century relatively unscathed.

Into the future with oil lamps

Five years ago, Milne moved his wife and children -- by then they had five -- to his farm in Virginia and expects about a dozen more relatives to join them next year.

He built a bunkhouse and put up a 550-gallon water tank, using a mechanical pump to fill it from a well on his property. He bought a propane-powered refrigerator, oil lamps, and a wood stove, eliminating the need for electrical power. And he started buying food. Lots of it.

Wheat and corn are packed in six-gallon buckets, to be ground into flour as needed. His secret cache of food includes a half ton of rice, a half ton of beans, along with sugar, coffee, and cocoa. Fruits and vegetables from his garden -- where he grows peas, beans, carrots, tomatoes, onions, pumpkins, zucchini, and cantaloupe -- were canned. Beef and venison were preserved.

Milne and others believe the Y2K problem, another name for the millennium bug, could disrupt supplies of food, water, electricity, and other essentials as the computers that control manufacturing processes, transportation, and distribution networks break down. Food and water will become scarce, and inner cities will become increasingly violent, hampering deliveries of emergency supplies. In short order, they say, none of the things human beings depend on will be available.

Milne's goal is complete self-reliance, of the sort virtually unknown in the United States since the previous century. When his family needed butter, he learned how to churn it, using cream skimmed from the milk of his own cows. When his family needed soap, he learned how to make it, using fat rendered from a steer raised for food.

"We wanted to know everything we could possibly know," Milne said. "And that's what we did."

Part of being self-reliant means protecting family and supplies, and to that end Milne -- who never owned a gun before -- purchased several rifles and handguns. He said if someone needed food and asked, he'd gladly provide a meal; if someone tried to steal it, he'd stop him.

"If you can't protect yourself, [all the preparation] doesn't make any difference," he said. "We're perfectly willing to defend ourselves when we deem that necessary."

His relatives don't share pessimism

Milne realizes how this looks to those with a more optimistic view of the year 2000. In fact, neither his mother nor siblings, some of whom still live in New Jersey, plan to join him on the farm, believing their world will not end in 433 days.

"My own mother thinks I'm psychotic," he said. "I have seven brothers and sisters. Not one of them thinks anything's going to happen."

But Milne insists the problem is worse -- much worse -- than most people realize. He has done "thousands of hours" of research into the problem, and "what I found out made the hair on the back of my neck stand up."

"It's frightening how bad it's going to be," he said. "There's going to be millions of people unprepared, and they're not going to find that help just materializes. People aren't going to be walking around holding hands and singing 'Kumbaya.' "

And that, in so many words, is what separates the survivalists from the rest of the world. Where most people see a minor inconvenience, survivalists see "the end of the world as we know it," a phrase so ubiquitous in survivalist literature that it has been reduced to an acronym. Where most people see the basic goodness of human nature preventing a large-scale breakdown in the social order, survivalists see savages in sheep's clothing.

Michael Barkun, a political science professor at Syracuse University, has spent 30 years studying the rise of apocalyptic movements in the United States. He said survivalists are not psychotics -- the opinion of Milne's mother notwithstanding -- but are responding to a perceived threat in a logical way.

"If you believe in the kind of scenario of an unfolding future of chaos and violence and disorder, then the response is a logical response," he said. "I don't think there's any evidence that they're less rational than anybody else. It's a mistake to view this kind of behavior as pathological."

Barkun believes that the pres-ent apocalyptic mood is the most widespread in U.S. history. Jim Benson, editor of the American Survival Guide, a magazine based in Placentia, Calif., estimates that followers number in the tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands, with the vast majority simply laying in a few supplies against the possibility of a food shortage.

The only movement that compares was the Millerite movement of the 1840s, he said. William Miller, a sectarian leader from Massachusetts, convinced tens of thousands that the Bible prophesied the second coming of Christ in 1843, prompting many to prepare for the Day of Judgment in much the same way that survivalists of today are preparing for 2000. When that day -- and a second date -- passed without incident, the movement fizzled, and Miller's followers founded the Adventist Church.

One difference between then and now is the Internet. Jerrold Post, director of the political psychology program at George Washington University, said the Internet allows people who would otherwise never meet to form a virtual community, making it easier for extreme beliefs to take root.

"We're really in a whole new era of virtual group dynamics," Post said. "People who never met face to face are reinforcing some pretty extreme beliefs."

In fact, the culture and commerce of Y2K survivalism is alive and well on the World Wide Web, an irony that is not lost on survivalists themselves.

Hundreds of Web sites devoted in whole or in part to survivalist issues allow individuals to form survivalist groups and trade tips on long-term food storage and the best ways to convert assets into precious metals. Companies peddle freeze-dried food and diesel generators. Books, magazines, and newsletters on survival issues seek out their target audience. And at least one writer, James Rawles, has published an entire screenplay, "Triple Ought," depicting his apocalyptic vision of the post-Y2K world.

-- maul pilne (maul.pilne@depends.com), November 29, 1998.

Patience, Paul, Patience! Your day is coming, and I'm not referring to our 01/01/00 deadline. It'll start in a few weeks when various businesses have to book a year ahead for their airline travel, and the various agencies' computers cannot enter "2000." If the general public does not become aware of this, we will when April 1 rolls around. Canada, Japan, and New York State will all have their computers advancing to fiscal 2000 on that day. (What an April Fool's Day!!) What will just New York City be like if all the folk do not receive their welfare checks? April 6 is Great Britain's turn; then 44 U.S. States in June or July with others following in succeeding months, and finally, our Federal Government on Oct. 1, '99. Will it make you happy, Paul, to finally see the panic begin on April 1, the bank runs, the food runs? Or will you have stored some extra food to be ready to help others? From the anger and disdain for others that leaps out of your fingers onto the page, I think I know your answer. Sad, sad, sad.

-- Holly Allen (Holly3325@juno.com), November 29, 1998.

Holly,

Will it make me happy to see people panic? of course not. Will it make me happy to see people harmed? Of course not. But THAT is going to happen anyway. And the people who have been warned and have done nothing DESERVE what is going to happen to them.

You are an ignoramous if you think I disdain people. What the devil do you think that I have been warning them for? Because I disdain them? Don't be such a ridiculous fool.

What you do not understand is that I do not suffer FOOLS gladly. If I 'disdained' people, I would have warned no one at all now would I? You are just one of the many namby-pamby milque-toast who continue to molly-coodle people. What they need is an air-horn upside their heads. THERE IS NO TIME LEFT for frittering around.

What is 'sad sad sad' as you put it is that there is ZERO public awareness of the immensity of the consequences. So you go ahead and continue playing your silly little games. Don't ruffle any feathers. Don't rock the boat. heaven forbid attract attention to the seriousness of the calamity that is about to happen. And by all means, accuse one of the few people, STRIDENTLY warning folks of danger, of 'disdaining people'.

Yeah, we need more people like you like we need a hole in the head.

-- Paul Milne (fedinfo@halifax.com), November 29, 1998.

Paul, Paul, Paul! I've read your postings for a few days now, and somehow, I'm not surprised at your remarks:

<<>>

Okay, Paul, let's play.

I don't believe the 500 rounds of 45 cal I've fired down range the past two days make this a "ladies tea party", nor would it be considered "namby-pamby". If you want to run into "the stupid masses" on your way to where ever it is you are planning to go, then do so at your own risk. I would just as soon lessen the burden of having to shoot my way through them to get into your 'life boat' scenerio. Wouldn't you take any help (60 Minutes) you can get at this point? Frankly, Paul, you argue as if stupidity were a virtue!

-- Bob Walton (waltonb@kdsi.net), November 29, 1998.

Hard hitting it wasn't, it was however pretty straight forward. They didn't try to demonize it by parrelling it with a side story on Jerry Falwell or Gary North ( no offense to anyone). They also didn't put up some idiot and his 25 gun arsenal "gettin ready". As for Koskinen, he's nothing more than a puppet. The magnitude of the problem is how big? An he has a staff of 3...4? Truly speculation here but, I would imagine that they had a pretty high viewership rate ecspecally after last weeks Kovorkian piece. I can see an increase of Y2K talk by the Hush Yuppies around the watercooler. If from this point forward the networks start doing follow-up of the same nature or even starker as the Sixty Minutes piece then after all the Christmas spending and they have had time to chew the cud awhile that come about 1/1 the rush is on.

CP

-- CP (Spoonman@prodigy.net), November 29, 1998.

Spoonman, You belittle those who have purchased weapons. You call them idiots. It is *you* who will feel that he has been an idiot when you realized that you needed them and you don't have them.

So, instead of having someone on the show who would unashamedly talk about the necessity of self defense, they have some butthead Moron from MIT saying that he knows it won't be a disaster.

The 60 minutes show not only did not Advance the cause of preparation, it set it back.

-- Paul Milne (fedinfo@halifax.com), November 29, 1998.

hey folks,

to me its reveiling that Paul Milne would allow his lifestyle, complete with the knowledge of his food stocks, to be revealed if he did not have a heart to help. Hats off to you Paul. You are more couragious than I.

I watched the program. Had a small gathering over. I thought that it was watered down if you accept TEOTWAWKI. When has the media ever cared if they caused a "panic". I think that the editors, like me, are still unsure as to the effects of Y2K.

I just finished reading a newsletter put out by open christinanity. I have lurked here for months and have participated for months yet I have had this continual nagging doubt about the effects. I am preparing. Yet I am preparing because I think it wise anyway. Yet after reading this newsletter by Open Christianity I have for the first time felt that strange, unfamilar feeling called FEAR! Mayby it critical mass for me.

If what I am hearing is really true, a very important point truth, then we should all fear and use the motiviation fear causes to prepare and sound the alarm. This is why Paul is so adamant.

I really, really hope that what we are discussing is paranoia. If the watchman sees the approaching enemy and fails to warn the city, the blood of the innocent will be on the watchmans hand.

ww

-- WAYNE WITCHER (WWITCHER@MVTEL.NET), November 29, 1998.

# # # 19981129

60 Minutes = Y2K Fluff; Huff and Puff ... Poof!

Downside: No enhancement of the Y2K stealth radar image for the Don't Get Its ( DGI's ).

DGI's are global view impaired and doomed; won't handle truth.

Upside: More "quality time" to prepare personal "carrying capacity" for the GI's.

GI's have a better chance, if they can stomach the fallout.

Topside: "Infomagic II" is a little optimistic; digging in the right vein < http://www.kiyoinc.com/WRP103.HTM >.

Thirty-three+ years of IT experience; waxing, voyeuristically with soul mate, Infomagic!

Regards, Bob Mangus < mailto:rmangus@mail.netquest.com > # # #

-- Robert Mangus (rmangus@mail.netquest.com), November 29, 1998.

Wayne,

Ezekiel 33:6

"But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, and the people are not warned, and a sword comes and takes a person from them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood I will require from the watchman's hand."

We have a DUTY to warn people. It is not enough to play silly games. They must be WARNED that their lives are in danger, no ifs, ands or buts. If you do not warn people , YOU are guilty of their blood.

-- Paul Milne (fedinfo@halifax.com), November 29, 1998.

That professor from MIT was a disgrace. How can you say There isnt going to be a disaster one second Nobody knows what is going to happen in the next?

Paul is right, MORON!

Very disappointing show, but thats OK, Ive got a few things to do before the clueless wake.

"Move along folks, nothing to see here"

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), November 29, 1998.

Paul, I obviously was not clear. I'm not saying the guy is an idiot for having 25 guns......rather they way the media will typical portray a Y2K aware and preparing individual as either a religious zealot or a gun toting backwards redneck.

CP

-- CP (Spoonman@prodigy.net), November 29, 1998.

Paul is entirely right in his stridency over getting the message out over y2k. People are in imminent danger of starvation and death. This is the USA right? Things like that don't happen here. We have a multiple felon in the White House and nobody cares, so why the hell should they care about y2k? All my working life I've been feeding approximately 300 of you and you don't know it. And, I'm just a small farmer. You have no idea how complex and layered the food production system in this country is. Do you know my livestock consumes over 11 tons of feed per day? Have you any idea of the level of efficiency in railroads, trucking, scheduling, milling, and on the farm delivery this requires? Do you have any clue as to the role computers play in processing of every agricultural commodity Americans take for granted? If you love your family, I tell you, stock up on essential foods now. Why? Because if the railroads suffer even a 20% decrease in efficiency, your food supply will be in danger. I can go back to subsistance or slightly better agriculture without the support of the agribusinesses with whom I trade but you (city dwellers) cannot. The fragile chain of food supply is wide open to disruption from any number of causes. My gut tells me we are being lied to in spades by these corps. and govs. Remember your dear felon in chief. Would HE lie to you? NUFF SAID.

-- doktorbob (downsouth@dixie.com), November 29, 1998.

Paul,

Im impressed, didnt think many would make the biblical connection.

Read in this thread that you were into commodities.

I, like Gayla and others, have been preparing for a few years because I was concerned about the economy. I especially grew alarmed this summer. I thought for sure that the market would bottom.

Well, I found an e-mail on the desk of a co-worker. It was a North newsletter. Had a web address, which I accessed. Thats how I found this sight, and Im glad I did. If TEOTWAWKI due to Y2K is real, you guys have done my family a great service. Im spreading the word now. Keep up your good work!! ww

PS know of any good sites reguarding state of economy? Please share :-)

-- WAYNE WITCHER (WWITCHER@MVTEL.NET), November 29, 1998.

Paul, you're right, and we do indeed have the requirement to warn people (Ezekiel 33:6) HOWEVER go back and read verses 3&4

"When he sees the sword coming upon the land, if he blows the trumpet and warns the people, then whoever hears the sound of the trumpet and does not take warning, if the sword comes and takes him away, his blood shall be on his own head."

A number of folks (including yourself in multiple venues)are indeed sounding the trumpet. Note that doesn't mean God requires us to beat some sense into people's heads, but rather merely get their attention with the information.

More importantly, since this is God's requirement, and He already knows the limits of our abilities and influences, that doesn't mean we have to endlessly shout and wave flags at people who are outside of our influence and to whom our abilities are meaningless. In other words we keep telling people as long as we can - the ones who get it, get it, the ones who don't, don't...in the end they have to answer to God for their choices just like we do...and they will, oh yes they will.

Arlin Adams

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), November 29, 1998.

Of the 200 or so people I have warned about Y2K, I seriously doubt if even one has purchased extra food for preparation. Although many dismiss the possibility of a disaster, some actually understand there will be great problems. But they do not *act* -- they assume that they will have ample time "next year". Paul Milne's advice to the sheeple is absolutely right: LET THE PANIC BEGIN! WE ARE OUT OF TIME!!! GO BUY SOME DAMN RICE ALREADY!! Christmas season is all but guaranteed to lull everyone into complacency until mid January. By then the situation will probably be much worse.

-- a (a@a.a), November 29, 1998.

Arlin, I have written many times that those who do not listen DESERVE what they get. I am not afraid to say that. They DESERVE what happens to them. But, I was not leaving that out. I was talking about the other side of the coin. People have a duty to warn the others. And they are GUILTY if they do not do so.

-- Paul Milne (fedinfo@halifax.com), November 29, 1998.

I am wondering just how many people will be wishing they had all that money that they spent on unimportant gifts for people that they probably really didn't want to buy for in the first place BUT could use that money NOW to be buying all the important things that they will NEED very, very soon!!! (Such a LONG sentence, but had to get my thought across!) I am sorry, but I will be spending lightly this Christmas and heavily on y2k. Blondie

-- Blondie Marie (Blondie@future.net), November 29, 1998.

Yeah, it was claptrap. Yeah, it was pretty much what I expected from "60 minutes." Yeah, it ought to up the temperature a notch or two. And yeah, there are a lot of assholes and morons out there. But what is becoming increasingly obvious to me is that there are forces out there that WANT THIS TO HAPPEN...don't ignore that possibility.

Paul, I respect your opinion, agree with your position, and I don't think you're a very nice man (not that that ever really counted in matters of survival). However, it might just be that YOU are the moron for actually thinking you can make much of a difference. The things you say and the volume in which you say them may help wake up a few slumbering souls (like me, thanks) but I truly believe that there are forces at play here that are beyond our scope.

Call it a plot by the global elite, call it revelation, call it the end times, a power play, or whatever mumbo-jumbo makes sense to you. I've never been much of a conspiracy theory believer, but I do have this gut feeling that those few who are REALLY keeping things quiet are a hell of a lot smarter, and have a more organized end-game plan than those of us running around squawking. A billion deaths to those types would be a blessing, not a tragedy. I think that's what we're dealing with. And this is just one more thing in a long line, it's been going on forever...

-- pshannon (pshannon@inch.com), November 29, 1998.

For at least 8 months that I know of, every time a new article or newsclip comes out about Y2K, people say, "Maybe THIS will get everyone's attention. Surely THIS will do it." NOTHING happens. If it doesn't hit John Q. Public in his wallet in a HUGE way today, he doesn't care about it. There is enough information available NOW for everyone to "get it" if they choose to. Paul, you're all rough and tough on the outside, but I see a big "teddy bear" on the inside. :-)

-- Gayla Dunbar (privacy@please.com), November 30, 1998.

Dittos to all your posts Paul, dittos.

Tell 'em like it is, not what what they wish it to be.

The sobering dose of sanity is really welcome in this day and age.

Don't relent. I like yourself am beginning to feel that the masses have it coming to them.

The question in the next few months will be: "Is ignorance really bliss?"

-- INVAR (gundark@aol.com), November 30, 1998.

Mr. Milne:

I wholeheartedly agree that there needs to be shouting from the rooftops, etc., etc. Having said this, please consider the following scenario (and please read the end of the post before you start to draft any response):

"One Hour" your weekly news show will look at the Y2K bug this week!!!

the coverage on One Hour oipens with pics of P. Milne at "work" at his farm.

Scene 2 is C. Hamasaki, who talks about the tech background.

Scene 3 is blacked out and audio disguised as Famous INFOMAGIC gives his take

Scene 4 is Ed Yourdon in his home, showing off the stores.

Scene 5 is Senator Bennet who says that it just isn't happening and we need nationwide contingency planning.

Scene 6 is the OathBreaker in Chief saying not to worry, it's all heh, heh under control.

the closing is an entreaty by teh One Hour staff, all present, to start to prepare.

. . . . . . . . . . .. . . . ..

Monday 9:30 AM Eastern time the market opens down 100 and proceeds to show that what goes up, comes down.

11:00 AM Eastern The first bank in the country, the marine Midland branch in Potsdam, NY runs out of cash and closes "temporarily".

11:00 AM Central Price Consumer Warehouse in a suburb of Chicago calls the police to quell a riot in the bulk foods aisle.

1:00 PM Eastern The suit papers for damages to Marine Midland are submitted in Federal Court

1:05 PM Eastern Price files suit against One Hour for creating the run and the damages to their store.

THIS IS WHY IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN!!!!!!

I drive for a living, I talk Y2K with every client that is willing to talk (my boss requires professionalism, and with some of the folks I get to drive, the driver is an earless, mouthless piece of equipment on the car). In some cases, the ones who get it don't get it as a real problem, and in MOST cases the client hasn't got a clue. Now, I carry some folks who are definitely not your average bears (Managing partner McKinsey-UK, CEO #3 Law firm in world, Fortune 500 CEO's, Senior partners Boo-Allen, McKinsey, Arthur Anderson, PW-Coopers, and etc.). In agregate, these guys are DGI's. They are out there selling "rationalized supply chain" projects (enhanced JIT, sometimes to the HOUR), "rationalized demand chain projects", etc.

It makes me intensely frustrated.

the above scenario is, IMNTBHO, why we will not get coverage until a country, or a company goes toes up and assumes room temp.

"First, we kill all the lawyers" ?Richard?,??

Chuck, a night driver who hates the Dark, tries walk in the Light, and refuses to see the Dark triumph, and the Light extinguished because no one attempted a defense

POTS

-- Chuck a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), November 30, 1998.

I know this is not going to win me any fans, but honestly I don't care anymore.

The 60 Minute piece, while not perfect, was a pretty textbook example of journalism. It presented both sides of the argument and leaves the final judgement up the viewer. A journalists TRUE job is to bring you both sides of the argument with as little bias, and hopefully none, and let you think about it. This piece did that. You had the "mild problems guy", the economic troubles guy, the workers, possible results, the money maker (if anyone should be pissed, it should be mr. "pay me for my testimony"), and the managable guy. They filled the total 15 minutes with the entire spectrum, which is pretty impressive considering the current attention span of your average American.

I'm sorry folks, but that was about the closest thing I have seen to "true journalism" about Y2K since it has started. You can not have a screaming from the rooftops piece and call it a non-biased piece. Everyone here gets pissed off when a piece it too smiley faced, well guess what guess a "screaming" article is the exact same thing, just changed 180 degrees.

And btw, sorry to tell you all this, but the piece worked. I convinced my Mother months ago of the coming troubles, but my father has brushed me off constantly. I convinced him to sit down and watch this piece with me. Well we had the most productive talk ever afte rthe piece. The line that made it click "Your deposit would disappear"...he got it.

Rick

-- Rick Tansun (ricktansun@hotmail.com), November 30, 1998.

And a duplicate post here...

Well, about all I can say for the 60-Minutes program is, its a start.

Now, I decided to do an exit poll of my 77-year-old, WWII veteran mother, who thinks they will take care of the Y2K problem. Had her watch 60-Minutes then tell me what she thought.

Q -- Do you think there is a problem now? A -- Yes. Its a good idea to be self-sufficient for a few weeks. Guess more people will become aware after this.

Q -- What do you think you should you do to get ready? A -- Its important to keep duplicates of all records in case they get messed up. Keep careful records, and be sure you get the actual checks you write back from the bank, not just an electronic summary.

Q -- What do you think you should do about money? How about the stock market? A -- Well, I think Ill hold onto any checks I get, and not deposit them until the problems are worked out, so they wont lose it then. Its also a good idea to have money around, but not too much, so it wont get taken away. A better idea is to put the money into real goods, so I have something I dont have to buy when prices are higher. With the stock market, theyll just shut it down temporarily. I have to keep good records. My money will be okay when they bring it back up.

[*Sigh*]

Q -- What do you think you should do about food and water? A -- I need to stock up on supplies during all of next year. Each time people get a paycheck, they should buy some more food throughout the year, so the grocery stores can re-stock. Dont wait until the last minute for your own sake and that of the economy. Pay attention to the shelf life of foods purchased. They should publish information about the shelf life of foods and medicine. I need to have trade goods and I need to work out having help groups with the neighbors to band together and help one another. I also need to check on the supply lists put out by the government and emergency groups for earthquakes, fire, floods, and civil unrest. Need to prepare with those ideas. I also need to collect that information ahead of time and not wait until the last minute.

Q -- Speaking of medicine, and health care, because the health care industry is one of the more technology dependent areas and one thats the furthest behind, what should you do about that? A -- Hum. Health care can be quite a problem for those dependant on medicine. Anything that needs to be done should be done as soon as possible while insurance can still take care of it, in case the records are messed up. Think I need to have a copy of my medical records. I need to concentrate on getting as healthy as I can so I can survive the difficult times.

Q -- What else will you need to do? A -- Have my dental check-up and get any dental work done early. I need to stock up on pain-killers, aspirin and tylenol. Need spare glasses. Need to pay attention to anything one is totally dependent on for life support. Have extra. Its kind of morbid but the city governments need to have a good supply of body bags on hand for people who die and cant be buried right away.

Q -- Mom, some estimates are that the electricity will be out for as little as two weeks to three months, or more. What should you do to get ready? A -- I need to buy or build a solar cooker. I can use the fireplace for warmth. Need lots of warm clothing. If its really cold weather, I should have one room in the house thats well-insulated. I could even set up a tent in the living room to keep warmer. That means people need to have camping equipment. I guess I need to plan on not having gas for the car or depend upon public water or electricity. I need a camp stove with fuel cartridges, and a good supply of food I dont have to cook. A manual can opener.

Q -- What about water? Suppose you run out? A -- Well, I need to start saving containers now and towards the end of next year fill them. I need to learn how to treat the water. Ill need a water purification unit, the kind used for camping. I also need a supply of water purification tablets. If I run out, Ill need help hauling water from the creek or from the local reservoir, and something to haul it in. People also need to have containers for the rain water.

Q -- What else would you need? What about sewers not working? A -- Tools. Shovels to dig holes for human waste, and use something like the composting toilets that add something, a chemical disinfectant or else pete moss each time its used. Need to teach people how to not spread disease.

Q -- What about people with children? A -- People with babies should have cloth diapers, not the throw away kind. They need medicine and food too. They also need to make sure children have a secure ID on them, like dog tags. During World War II children were lost because they didnt know who they were. Have the little ones know their full names, where they live, the names of parents and relatives and each ones name and everywhere their relatives all live in case a parent dies. Drill them until they know who they are.

Q -- You mentioned civil unrest earlier? Is that a problem? What would you do if you had to move? Where would you go? A -- Hum. Thats a problem. I guess if people came to the house with guns wanting what I have, Id point them to the pile and say take it. Of course, Id have different stashes of food and supplies hidden. If I had to leave, Id hide in the hills. Theyd probably ruin the house before I came back. If I had to move because of the weather or a disaster like an earthquake, Id have to decide where to go at the time. Id need to think about what Id do in different situations. It would depend on the gas in my car and which roads were open. A fire would be a problem if theres no water to put it out.

Q -- If you had to leave on foot what would you do? A -- Have sturdy shoes, warm clothes and a backpack with camping supplies.

Q -- What else do you think is important? A -- To develop an attitude of self-sufficiency. Dont depend on others to do for you, but at the same time its important to prepare the community. People need to quietly prepare to have their lives disrupted for awhile.

Q -- What did this 60-Minutes program do for you? A -- It told me there was going to be a problem and Id better find out more. But other people may not pay attention until the middle of next year.

Q -- Should you tell your friends about the problem based on what you saw? A -- Not too much yet. Ill wait until later when its talked about more.

*Sigh* It is just a start.

Diane

(And to Paul Milne, there arent words enough to describe your cavalier attitude towards the rest of the world. You, sir, have NO humanity in your soul. I consider you to be a big part of the problem at this timing. Definately NOT part of any solution except for your own selfish self! Your own words, in this post, just stripped away the thin veneer of human civilization you carry around you and also exposed the savagery beneath your surface, ticking away inside, like your own personal time bomb. Very sad.)

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), November 30, 1998.

Well Paul, if we're looking at what appears to be "disaster of Biblical proportions" in the making, perhaps this awareness level thing is proceeding along standard Biblical lines, exactly as intended?

Matthew 24

36 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

One wonders if Noah tried to tell anyone else to get ready. Perhaps he considered his own actions to be telling enough...

-- Nathan (nospam@all.com), November 30, 1998.

Can't tell you why Chuck - Paul either, for that matter,

Changing public opinion in this country is a massive, slow project more like waking a dinosaur with 150 million brains all using "the don't bother me unless its painful process."

But each brain - listens (sometimes) to to the easiest, most comfortable thing to listen to (music, top 40, rock, easy listening, country or whatever) and hearing only 2-5% of what is siad - unless its gets personal - like a coming blizzard, or the paycheck getting cut. Then the 150 million start listening - sometimes panicing (like down here) and cclear out the bread aisle.

Okay - so we've proven they can be panicked into preparations - but only when faced with a couple of things: (one) a trusted source (the weatherman) (two) who is presenting an understandable problem they comprehend (it will snow tommorrow - you can't drive) (three ) that affects them personnally.

[rest of country - quit snickering, I know you guys laugh about southern types getting uptight about snow - deal with it, quit bugging me - its the principle I'm talking about, not the specifics]

Second - the general mass of people are able to accept the Y2K threat - every stock clerk, waiter, store manager, cop, or truck driver I've talked to over the past 3 months has acknowledged the problem - worries about it, and isn't sure what to do about it. Most doubt management will be able to solve it. Most - almost all - already know a lot about it, and every person in every check out line I've been in has had at least one (sometimes more) person who repeats my warning or word of caution (These are questions like: "Will that thing work next year?" "Is your inventory system ready?" "What is the company doing about year 2000?" "Have they fixed the payroll computer yet for you guys?" etc.]

So people can be taught = Good. They are ready to listen to somebody who is willing to teach them = good.

But training then for this great a shovk - particularly the shock of not being able to rely on Uncle Sam for everything. These are people who have been coached will protect them from everything since they were born. They have to be "broken" of that notion - they have to become self-reliant in one year - and they are afraid of it. They are afraid of the freedom and self-discipline it takes. They can become again self disciplined - which is why I think the Christian right takes the message better than many - it reinforces their 'traditional" values, and gives a little of the "Protestent work ethic" many miss back in the daliy routine.

Y2K threatens most those who want the current government to succeed - unless they in government see it as an opportunity to increase the government's political and social control. (A definite probability - particularly study their use of the troubles to confiscate firearms.)

But the real crime is that the national government - starting at the White House - either does not want to alarm people, based on the fact that this administration has made its career out of reading polls, then changing the poll results via a compliant media into the results they want via a beautiful propaganda machine . Ot they (the White House) don' twant to place Clinton-Gore at the center of anything controversial (see above) that is going to happen without a scapegoat. They are to blame for the y2K mess - at the fed level absolutely, at the state and local level by default and lack of example.

The media - yes Rick T. - the media is the deliberate stooly of these guys. They will not do anything to embaress the White House, unless and until the "rest" of the media falls into place and everybody goes with the same story. They will follow like compliant tissue paper whatever lead the national press gives. And that is what they've done so far.

Exception to above rule - if they (one) see themselves going out of business or geting new business, they may break ranks. That will happen only when the news producers paychecks are threatened. Or the news producer's and editor's "social" equal's paychecks are threatened. [Example: notice the national stories about the New York delicatesson and "Wall Street" stores closing down (then recovering) as the stock market went down then up this fall. They will track what interests the New York media personally. Notice that Social Security checks and air traffic controllers lead almost every Y2K story now days? That all they know about. That's all they care about. That's all they want to write about.]

So - you have a people who can be taught - if taught. They can prepare - if told to prepare. But the media doesn't WANT to report that. They (the national media = CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, NY Times) aren't personally interested = it doesn't affect them yet. They aren't interested professionally yet = becasue they haven't been told to get interested by the Democratic Party. The White House (for several reasons) doesn't want them to report any problems yet.

I can speculate on reasons - its not worth it yet.

So - to get the level of interest you want - we have to educate the media so they understand it and take it personally, in the their guts, in their friends, or in the pocketbook. Most in the media aren't ready to do that becasue they are compliant socialists who want the government to eliminate freedoms - or they wouldn't be in the media.

It doesn't help that the people who they abhor (the "get it's") in the media (Drudge, several of the TV preachers, and people at World Net Daily, etc.) are already covering Y2K. So they (the national media) would be admitting these guys (many of whom are independent thinkers who study the issues dispassionately, and are therefore conservative) were right - and they can't allow that.

So they reject the story - because their friends, on-lookers, and "heroes" (socially and politically) want to reject the story, or want the story rejected. Or they dilute the story, like 60 minutes did.

And the people don't get told. And you and I get frustrated. Get fearful, as each day goes by.

-- Robert A. Cook, P.E. (Kennesaw, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), November 30, 1998.

Rick's comment was interesting. He said,

The 60 Minute piece, while not perfect, was a pretty textbook example of journalism. It presented both sides of the argument and leaves the final judgement up the viewer. A journalists TRUE job is to bring you both sides of the argument with as little bias, and hopefully none, and let you think about it. This piece did that.

True, but what the piece did not do was even more interesting. It really did not present a view of preparing. What good is a piece that leaves the viewer with all the information he or she needs to decide whether there's a problem........but offers no solution?

Stop and think. How many times has someone on this forum called them "sheeple?" The flock -- following along. Who's leading? Did 60 minutes suggest that all of their viewers would be advised to prepare? Nope......and they won't,for reasons that Chuck spelled out.

-- rocky (rknolls@hotmail.com), November 30, 1998.

Rick - been thinking about your answer - probably written the same time as mine -

I think that's part of the problem - it is not the right time for textbook journalism - but rather the time for training and attitude adjustment - dare I say - for propaganda and conversion?

Its true - they did better than I expected, but had the same cast of characters I expected. But it (for recovery) is almost too late for textbook journalism. The nationa (world) have to be prepared mentally for something incredible to happen - and by definition - it will be an event that will strain their credibility to understand and cope with it.

But if taught - maybe even by comparing even the roughest of troubles with the what their great-grandfathers and grandmothers put up daily basis - the worst we fear will be avoided. Given time to recover, and given no panic or starvation by the people, and given no riots or whole-sale destruction by people who have shown they have no morals against rioting or looting, we can keep the infrastructure up (or recover it readily enough)

But if the level of preparations isn't "pushed" by a media (and a governemtn) who is following "the textbook" and rewards itself that way - we (as a society) will fail. Completely.

-- Robert A. Cook, P.E. (Kennesaw, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), November 30, 1998.

A dizzy broad wrote:

(And to Paul Milne, there arent words enough to describe your cavalier attitude towards the rest of the world. You, sir, have NO humanity in your soul. I consider you to be a big part of the problem at this timing. Definately NOT part of any solution except for your own selfish self! Your own words, in this post, just stripped away the thin veneer of human civilization you carry around you and also exposed the savagery beneath your surface, ticking away inside, like your own personal time bomb. Very sad.)

Dianne, You are a butthead. A typical mealy mouthed butthead. We are talking about life and death. We are not talking about who wants to go to the tea party at the parsonage. People are ACTIVELY discouraging people from preparing. If you don't like the fact that I go after these people, then you can stick it in your ditty bag. I have been warning people and taking beating for it, for over a year. I don't need some dizzy sap like you telling me what 'humanity' I lack. When you have accomplished one tenth of one percent of what I have , then shoot off your fat mouth.

-- Paul Milne (fedinfo@halifax.com), November 30, 1998.

Isn't this SOP for the media -- mostly more questions, few, if any, answers -- put their finger to the wind, not BE the wind?

I'd be more worried if we were dictated through the media exactly what to do, how to act, what to believe, and when to believe it. I'd be as worried if that story came out definitively on the "no problems at all" side as on the "you may begin panicking...NOW" side.

If the media were on as tight a government leash as some here suggest, I doubt we would have had any balance at all. We can't have it both ways. Are they the tool of government or not? Or are they the tool of government only when it suits us that they be?

You certainly don't expect the media to take the lead on this, do you? It's not their job. They can support, but they cannot, and they should not, lead. The media are not our elected leaders. If someone is to take the lead on this issue, it's the people we've elected and given the responsibility to provide leadership. And not just those serving in Washington, bu at all levels. Hopefully, they will provide the necessary leadership to the best of their abilities and judgment.

And if you can't or won't accept their leadership anyway, or the timing of that leadership, or the extent of that leadership, or the manner of that leadership, then lead yourself, in the anyway you see fit.

For as is their nature, those that are self-reliant, WILL be self-reliant. Those that are dependent, WILL be dependent. Those that are self-reliant will rail against those that are comfortable in their dependence and that to which they are dependent. And those that are comfortable in their dependence and that to which they are dependent will destroy those that are self-reliant.

And around and around she goes...

-- Nathan (nospam@all.com), November 30, 1998.

You guys are looking in the wrong place if you think broadcast television is going to shout "Y2K chaos is coming". All television is run by advertisers who control the media in one way or another. I have been trying to get a Y2K television show on the air for months now and have been running into one wall after another. It mainly comes down to whether advertisers will back your show. We have been told point blank by Sears, Wal-mart, K-mart, DuraCell, Rayovac, among many others that "We know all about Y2K and we're not touching it with a ten-foot pole." end of story. No one wants to be the one to light the fuse. Everyone is afraid of litigation. The only one who can, and should, shout it from the highest rooftops, is our President. He would not be censored by the advertisers. But he is operating from one of the following scenarios. 1. He totally understands the Y2K situation is hopeless and the only logical course of action to minimize the downside is by delaying the evential panic to let the programmers fix as much as possible before TSHTF. Fixing the code won't prevent a crisis but it will help in the reconstruction phase. He knows martial law and crisis management are his only tools for minimizing the downside. He is buying time with lives, hopefully to save a good many more. 2. The President and government is run by big business and is being pressured to keep Y2K in the background to allow big money to try and figure this thing out. (From where I sit, it's like watching the Three Stooges.) This scenario may be more to the truth than some would care to admit. As a Vietnam veteran spending the better part of four years fighting a war that was never intended to be won, let's just say I recognize the symptoms. And, when you look back at history, and realize the dozens of times the government has lied to the American people to further a big business cause, this scenario is very possible. 3. The President and his Czar are in serious denial, not to mention Mr. "Information SuperHighway" Gore. Did you see the CNN story the other day about everything being "OK" at the Defense department. Didn't CNN read the government report card? Don't they know F means failing? This story was imediately followed by Gore and the Sec. of Education talking about 2 billion dollars going to school children to bring them the Information Super Highway. They were all smiles as they went skipping off into the future. So listen up people, when it comes to free speech and shouting from the rooftops, this is it. The 60 minutes story is about as good as it's going to get now. And Paul, I agree with you, but we all have to invent a new way to get the word out. My staff and I work on this problem everyday. We have several projects in the works now approaching the subject in a variety ways other than hard news. As Paul Riser (Mad About You) likes to say..."That ain't gonna happen my friend". And like you Paul, for all the months of laborious research my staff and I have done to validate this problem as a real fork in the road for mankind, every one around me, my family included, are clueless. Even when presented with materials we print out or our newsletter we email them, they don't even read them. I personally hope scenario #1 is the plan because the other two would be far too embarrasing, coming from a a country that is the leader of the free world. Or any world , for that matter. What a joke this all is. "God" put us to the test years ago and we failed. We traded our way of life for money. Or maybe it was selling our soul to Satan..ooooo. ( oh, i'm gonna get mail on this one.) Either way, it sucks big time. Anyway, my plan is to get my three kids to a safe haven and ride out the storm in a remote place. When you consider the really big picture... all Hell is literally going to break loose, and it ain't going to be pretty. And, you folks who are dumping on Paul have to realize that when you have acquired as much Y2K knowledge and perspective as he has, that information becomes a curse as well as a blessing. When you finally "get it" you feel blessed cause maybe you can save your family. But you also feel cursed cause you feel you have to DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. All you want to do is STOP THE MADNESS. Instead of critizing Paul or flaming me, I challenge all of you to come up with a creative way to shout from the rooftops. Don't expect "the usual suspects" to do it. They all have their hands tied. And just ranting and raving on this board isn't good enough. I've been lurking here long enough to hear the same people belly-ache over and over that no one is doing anything. Guess what folks... we're the only ones with the real knowledge. Their the ones with the power. We've got to find a better way. Do your homework.

Keith.

-- Keith Nealy (keithn@ptd.net), November 30, 1998.

Does anyone know if the 60 minutes segment is archived anywhere? I would like to share it with family members who didn't get to see it, but I only have one vcr tape! Thanks.

-- Bobbi (volfnat@northweb.com), November 30, 1998.

The only possible good this show did was to help those of us who know how bad it will be to get people to at least sit down and listen to the truth AFTER THE SHOW WAS OVER.

The ending was about as stupid as stupid is. RESPONSIBLE journalism would have pointed people to sources and websites and places to get more information. Instead, what do they do? Invite us all to check with our pc manufacturer. As if to say, HEY SHEEPLE, this is all you all really have to worry about.

I agree with Milne, I mean Ezekiel, the show did more harm than good.

All I have to say is, when everyone gets it at once, look out. When will that be? What event will trigger it? IT CERTAINLY WASN'T 60 MINUTES.

And to those of you slamming Milne. You are the only people I know that needs 90 minutes to watch 60 minutes.

-- BBrown (peace2u@bellatlantic.net), November 30, 1998.

There is one catch to public Y2K awareness.

When the day arrives that the general public is aware enough to prepare, it will also be the day the stock market crashes.

"Be careful what you ask for. You just might get it".

-- Kevin (mixesmusic@worldnet.att.net), November 30, 1998.

Rick,

Thanks for the post! The show could not scream "it's the end of the world." Other than the stupid guitar player, I thought it was a fair report. We were presented with the problem and have the ability to decide what to do about it.

-- Dave (dave22@concentric.net), November 30, 1998.

In whatever way I can, using whatever method I can (or my personality will allow), this messenger will keep trying. (Shall the vessel say I am not able, or I cannot because I am thus and thus shape or form?)

Some will listen, some will not. Shall I then go and hide under a bushel basket, or run away to some far off land? Or hide in a belly of a great fish? No, I will not. Prophets rarely are honored, but many are scorned, ridiculed, tortured, even killed.

I will keep preparing, and along the way keep telling others a great hurricane is coming, and a great flood will follow. Prepare now or die!

I have many, many relatives, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, cousins, nieces and nephews, and many, many friends and neighbors. Only ONE thus far has listened and is now preparing. The other day the one who got it wrote, and said, "As mom (one of my sisters) and I are preparing, I often say, 'Thank you Uncle Joe.' Mom says 'Amen.'"

Many messages to many people. One got it so far.

By whatever means or method, keep talking.

Milne (others like you): our personalities would more than likely clash, but so what! Many different vessels (messengers) out there carrying the same message. Bless you Paul, and others like you (and, not like you).

Uncle Joe

-- Joe (jba@there.com), November 30, 1998.

Paul Milne,

Your name-calling is counter-productive. Rather than convincing anyone of your point of view, it serves to harden their resolve to ignore the rest of your message. That I think makes you part of the problem. I'm sure no matter what happens with Y2K you will continue to call people morons and buttheads over any issue. If things do pan out the way you expect, I'd say you'll be lucky to last a week with that attitude.

-- Buddy (DC) (buddy@bellatlantic.net), November 30, 1998.

Paul Milne.........

You are entitled to your opinion as to the severity of Y2K. While you seem convinced that it will be a 10+, there are many others who believe it will be a 5 or 6 or whatever. They look at the same facts as you and simply come to a different conclusion...........

Whether you are more correct, or they, will become clear in the next 6 to 18 months......

Until then, stop being so damn rude. You do not have exclusive rights to "getting it", nor do we bow down to your intelligence.

Your points of view are appreciated and welcomed........but remember, they are simply your points of view. It is not "The Gospel According to Paul".

There is more to being civilized than stockpiling food. The first step is to learn how to be civil.

-- Craig (craig@ccinet.ab.ca), November 30, 1998.

Robert,

Persistent water creates Grand Canyons. The challenge is within four to six months time we the people need to steer the newsmedia into helping the rest of us prepare. Daunting? Yes. Necessary? Yes. Do-able? Absolutely!!

True, but what the piece did not do was even more interesting. It really did not present a view of preparing. What good is a piece that leaves the viewer with all the information he or she needs to decide whether there's a problem........but offers no solution? -- rocky

IF we all write 60 Minutes and everyone else in the media, and ask them to show people HOW TO prepare, Im confident they will, within a month or so. (We also need to provide them with accurate sources on how to prepare). I just doubt that theyll air before the Holidays, BUT they could be working on the stories and programming for January. *Sigh*

But if the level of preparations isn't "pushed" by a media (and a governemtn) who is following "the textbook" and rewards itself that way - we (as a society) will fail. Completely. -- Robert

That is exactly WHY we need to push the media in a way they understand. Dont think they understand Paul.

And if you can't or won't accept their leadership [government] anyway, or the timing of that leadership, or the extent of that leadership, or the manner of that leadership, then lead yourself, in the anyway you see fit.

Or elect new leaders to be the Y2K preparation messengers who are already in the public eye and are trusted by most of the people. I return to Oprah, John Glenn, Martha Stewart, and so on ...

Diane

And again to Paul Milne ... Boy, you are just a walking volcano of suppressed anger, spewing lava-like ridicule and verbal abuse. Have you been this way all your life? No wonder Dan Rather choose Scott instead. You just continue to konk away with your hard hitting butthead 2x4. However, most people learn by patient teaching, from sources they trust, not by someone ranting and preaching in a wilderness. (You also get better results). -- A dizzy broad

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), November 30, 1998.

Paul Milne, Your name-calling is counter-productive. Rather than convincing anyone of your point of view, it serves to harden their resolve to ignore the rest of your message.

Answered by Buddy (DC) (buddy@bellatlantic.net) on November 30, 1998.

Buddy,

IMHO Paul's approach just might be a catalyst for some people to do some research to prove him wrong. There are many different personalities out there. We need as many different approaches to reach everybody.

Anna

-- Anna McKay Ginn (annaginn@aol.com), November 30, 1998.

Well, let's see here.

They did good research and presented a whole raft of facts clearly. They covered mainframes, PCs and embedded systems. They said your banking transactions might be deleted, that your phone may go dead, that power generation plants all rely on times and dates, that computers run almost everything and they're all at risk, that anything relying on electricity may fail, that Medicare is in deep trouble and the entire government is way behind, that knowledgeable people are making heavy duty preparations, that this is one of history's greatest blunders and we blew it. They spoke in terms of major failures, of insufficient time, of the unimaginable size of the task and the tedious, difficult, slow process of examining and repairing every single bug, one by one. They said we're not ready, that we are facing layoffs and bankruptcies, that the FAA has 23 million lines of code and if we miss one error, the screens go blank. And on and on and on.

Now, how is this a joke? Only because they didn't start screaming that we should all liquidate everything and run away to the boondocks of south central Virginia to milk cows and hurl foul-mouthed abuse at everyone?

The consensus here seems to be that they only told us the problems, and they failed to draw the 'proper' conclusions, leaving us to think for ourselves. And most of us seem to believe that only *we* can do this, and nobody else can, and 60 Minutes should have done *their* thinking for them. They only dunked us in the water, they didn't *force* us to drink. Shame on them. How disappointing.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), November 30, 1998.

"" IMHO Paul's approach just might be a catalyst for some people to do some research to prove him wrong. There are many different personalities out there. We need as many different approaches to reach everybody. ""

The problem is, Paul Milne's approach is exactly what turns off so many people from the message. His seeming inability to engage in civil discourse makes people write him off a as an uncivilized barbarian, and rightfully so. He may be a perfectly swell guy in person, but since his public postings are all that most people see of him, his message is drowned out by it's delivery. Milne is widely used an example of "those Y2K kooks who believe the world is going to end" by people who write off the whole thing as the delusions of right-wing survivalist wierdos. Believe me, he is doing far more harm than good.

On the (pseudo-)plus side, I was impressed to see how long it took him to get around to using the word "butthead" in a posting. He of course used numerous other insults before getting around to that one, but it's good to know his vocabulary is expanding.

-- Paul Neuhardt (neuhardt@ultranet.com), November 30, 1998.

Yes, the 60 Minutes treatment was disappointing, but when compared with previous mainstream Y2K news, it maybe was not half bad. But, as always: Bad Computer Code Does Not Care.

I guess I was mostly disappointed in what was not mentioned. Like Canada and the U.K., as well as the National Guards of Iowa and Wisconsin, openly preparing for martial law enforcement over Y2K. And the myth that the Y2K problems will begin at midnight on 1/1/2000, rather than different aspects starting in 1999. Like embedded chips (tiny mention), and the effect on electricity, communications, water (brief mention). I predict that this "kid gloves" news handling of Y2K will end in April 1999, when fiscal year 2000 rollovers occur. And that will be the beginning of the end.

-- Jack (jsprat@eld.net), November 30, 1998.

If everyone who "voiced" an opinion here on the forum, would voice an opinion to CBS, MAYBE we'd see more of what we want to see? It's pretty easy to say "Thanks for the Y2K coverage, how about....." IMO, it couldn't hurt!

http://www.cbs.com/navbar/feedback.html

-- Gayla Dunbar (privacy@please.com), November 30, 1998.

The problem with the 60 minutes piece and in trying to convince anyone is the continuous use of the word "may". This "may" happen, that "may" happen. Nobody knows, and "If you can't prove it, it ain't happening". Sorry guys, but that's what keeps it a profoundly personal choice. Like religion. What you believe is what you believe. That's why I can't flame DGI's. I can't produce God either.

-- margie mason (mar3mike@aol.com), November 30, 1998.

***He may be a perfectly swell guy in person, but since his public postings are all that most people see of him, his message is drowned out by it's delivery. ***

Nice try,...but doubtful. And he may be as right as rain in Seattle about TEOTWAWKI, and his favorite words beyond butthead include: moron, and idiot,etc., ad nauseum. Makes me sad for Mr. Milne's family. Attitude is UNhideable and pervasive in behavior,...and we have more than our fair share of narcissistic personality types telling us how to think, how to live and how to prepare to survive. I am sick to the teeth of ill-behaved 13-year olds in adult suits. Those of us with any notions about integrated whole human behavior will have to deal with many of that ilk post-y2k,... to our great present and upcoming chagrin.

-- Alice (aldiealice@island.net), November 30, 1998.

Hey

Maybe I'm wierd, but I like Paul. He suffers no fools! Good for you Paul.

We rotten bastards gotta stick together, when the sh!t flies and the messy work needs doing, always call an SOB.

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), November 30, 1998.

Uncle,

But does he want to see fools suffer because they DESERVE it, in his estimation? Perhaps he has his place, I don't dispute that. Just not at my place, or with most the people out there just starting to wake up, or with the bulk of the newsmedia, or, or...

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), November 30, 1998.

I'm not convinced about that. Survival, as it was siad in prvious posts, will take more than he-man grunts (Og scratches himself as he emerges from the cave)and assinine behavior.

-- Alice (aldiealice@island.net), November 30, 1998.

Could we take an informal poll about who will call an S.O.B./rotten bastard (Deedah's words) in time of crisis? I would pick a person with resources, a person who knows how to use and collect resources...someone with some stamina...Is that the definition of rotten bastard?

-- Alice (aldiealice@island.net), November 30, 1998.

Please, you idiots! Enough talk about the a**hole Paul Milne! You morons, we've got bigger problems! Milne's played his part in raising awareness, but now it's over you imbeciles! Milne, you may be right you butthead.

:)

-- Buddy (DC) (buddy@bellatlantic.net), November 30, 1998.

(Chuckling)

Uuummmm, is that a SOB vote? You sound like one yesseff!

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), November 30, 1998.

I've got an idea....

Remember the old Saturday Night Live news skit with Dan Akroyd and Jane Curtin? It was a satire of the 60 Minutes (I think) segment called Point/Counter-Point from the 70's. The name of the journalists escape me now.

Anyway, Jane would present the Point and when finished, Dan would always reply..."Jane, you ignorant slut", and then present his counter point in a very rude and condescending manner. Milne and Dianne would be perfect for this.

This, I believe, would get the message across to the masses in a way that none of us could. Both agree on the problem and the solution (preparation, preparation, preparation). But each are worlds apart on the presentation.

This might work!

MVI

-- MVI (vtoc@aol.com), November 30, 1998.

I've got a little S.O.B. in me, and a little butthead too!

-- Buddy (DC) (buddy@bellatlantic.net), November 30, 1998.

Alice

An SOB is not by necessity a bad or nasty man.

I would pick a person with resources, a person who knows how to use and collect resources...someone with some stamina...Is that the definition of rotten bastard?

That is a very good description of Gen. George S. Patton.

Not a rotten bastard. Definitely an SOB. He got the job done.

That is the kind of leadership called for today.

It is not there.

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), November 30, 1998.

MVI, you forgot about Roseanne-Roseanna-Danna! She was my favorite on that sketch. Any volunteers?

-- Gayla Dunbar (privacy@please.com), November 30, 1998.

Uncle Deedah,...I thank you for your definition...and it eases my mind to understand your definition better, cos I've liked your posts, and was worried earlier.

I think there were moments when I might have sent George Patton to his room to think and meditate,...(being the grandmotherly type that I am), but I think he might have liked it. LOL

It just concerned me that you were putting the Patton types in the same category as the Paul Milne types...not really the same, Uncle...

-- Alice (aldiealice@island.net), November 30, 1998.

Was "60 Minutes Show: A Complete Joke"?

After reading some of these posts last night, I assumed it was pap served in sugar. When I got to work this morning, my co-worker immediately asked me if I had seen the show. She had previously indicated that she "got it" but then has done nothing to prepare since. (Sounds like a "don't want to get it" to me.) She talked frantically about the possibility of "no electricity for four months". It was like watching a deer in the headlights (been there, done that). She has lived in Russia without electricity. I told her she was lucky because she knows how to cope. She replied, "But I don't want to go back to THAT." (As if she or anyone else has a choice.) Whatever else it was for everybody else, at least for her it was a frightening eye-opener. It couldn't have been a total waste of time.

-- Lois Knorr (Knorr@attcanada.net), November 30, 1998.

Lois, I would be interested to know if she starts preparing???

Alice, you sure sound a lot like......oh, well....never mind!

-- Gayla Dunbar (privacy@please.com), November 30, 1998.

I like Paul Milne. He may not be the most polite guy in the world, but he has got a point. And maybe the direct method is the best way to get peoples' attention?

As for why people don't do anything about y2k even though they know:

I believe that there will be a 10. I believe that many millions will die; 90% of our population is a figure I've used before. I expect that by this time in two years, firing a gun will be as familiar a task to me as going online is now. I expect to be living in confined conditions, on canned food, and to consider electric power a luxury to be used sparingly.

That's what I know, because I believe Infomagic and there's not a single bit of evidence to prove that point of view to be wrong. But below the surface, I don't expect things to be different.

I spent four hours this morning doing practise SAT 1 papers. Last night I was up until 3:30am working on one of my novels. When I eat lunch, I'll be re-reading a book by Mark McCormack about how to succeed in business. I spend an hour a day with a cassette and guidebook, learning French.

Because even though I know there is a ****load of evidence, nothing in everyday life indicates even slightly that anything will be any different. The people at the US Consulate (where I spent 3 hours yesterday) don't act any differently. Neither do the people at the newsagent or the supermarket or anywhere else, for that matter. None of my friends take the threat seriously. When I talk about it to them they think I'm being over-paranoid (they know me well enough to know I'm not a kook.) From the media, I get the impression that y2k is not going to happen to us, but to the people in distant Zambonia. The most it will affect us will be maybe our personal computers failing.

And most people, as I've said before, don't care about the future. They care about getting high/laid/pissed/a job/into an okay uni course. The future is someone else's problem.

Even me- Okay, I have a three-digit bank account at the moment so I can't do much anyway, but I'm spending only about 2-3 hours a day on y2k related stuff, and most of that time is spent on these forums (I'm also trying to gather data for my company proposal- because I *know* that will make ****loads of cash). The smart thing would be to screw most other stuff and focus 100% on y2k, but that threat is "invisible" and detectable only by the radar of knowledge and logic. It's just easier to think about, to work on stuff you can see.

Once the panic begins, it's going to be hell.

Which is why I may agree with Paul Milne, if what he's saying is "DON'T tell the masses, because there'll be a panic and everyone will die, not just 90%, because if everyone panics there won't be enough preparation stuff to go round and there will be 100% of people with 2 weeks supply rather than 10% who have a year's."

--Leo

-- Leo (leo_champion@hotmail.com), November 30, 1998.

Couldn't resist posting to this thread, since it was begun by my favorite (NOT!) demagogue, Mr. Milne. But since my intended replies to him have already been pretty well covered by Mr. Tansun, Mr. Flint, and Mr. Neuhardt, I'll just offer an innocuous bit of SNL trivia --

MVI, the '60 Minutes' journalists parodied by Dan Aykroyd and Jane Curtin were James J. Kilpatrick and Shana Alexander....click here for an aural blast from the past!

-- John Howard (Greenville, NC) (pcdir@prodigy.net), November 30, 1998.

while we're at it....the Church Lady's response to (or, description of) Milne?

click here

-- John Howard (Greenville, NC) (pcdir@prodigy.net), November 30, 1998.

one more time

-- JH in NC (pcdir@prodigy.net), November 30, 1998.

Answer to Diane ala 'Saturday Night Live'

Diane, you ignorant slut. If people are warned and do not do anything, they DESERVE the consequences of their decision to do nothing. How some perverse idiot, like you, translates that to mean anyone would 'want' that is beyond me.

Recognizing that an individual deserves the consequences of ignoring the warnings and doing nothing is in no way the same thaing as saying that one wishes them to be harmed. The FACT that I warn them is AMPLE evidence that I do NOT want to see them harmed, you obtuse moron.

You are the only idiot who could suggest that the guy that is warning people to care for their families 'WANTS' to see them harmed. You are indeed the poster child for abject, calculated, invincible ignorance.

And you want to know why I get irate? Because of utter %$#@*&%$s like you who have the unmitigated temerity to suggest that I wish another to be harmed.

Let me clue you in as to the gravity, Diane. People are about to DIE, stupid. Do you understand that yet. This is not some Campfire girl game. People are going to DIE. I don't think it is funny. I don't think it is a joking matter. It is literally, deadly serious.

But we have whiny Pollyanna soft soap peddlers worried about just how well their 'message' will be received. So they craft a putrid middle- of-the-road piece of vomitous clap-trap guaranteed to incite NO ONE to action.

"Well, maybe it will be bad. No one knows."

"It could be a speed-bump."

"Protect yourselves. Have three days of food on hand. No need for guns."

This is the king of vile filth that is going to KILL people. You do not realize hoe LATE in the game it is. Once you have yelled out to the guy to get out of the way of the oncoming bus and he says, "There ain't no bus, you're just a scaremonger."; then I calls 'em as I sees 'em. I tell that asshole he has one more chance to live.

Yes, asshole. he is not an asshole merely because he 'disagrees' with me. He is not an asshole because he has come to a different set of conclusions. These are lame excuses.

He is an asshole because the EVIDENCE, the **MOUNTAINOUS** EVIDENCE clearly shows us that there is NOT ONT SIGNIFICANT company on the face of the earth that is compliant. NOT ONE. For the past two years they have been saying that it was mandatory to be done with remediation thirty days from now to have one year for testing. Testing is over half the job. On ANY bell curve the dsiribution of companies that have finished remediation should have peaked already. It has not yet begun.

Only a myopic 'asshole' can not see that. If you have such a weak stomach that you can not face the truth when that truth is uunpleasant or delivered with harsh wording, then you are going to have one hell of a time defending yourself when the time comes.

You have no clue how late it is. There is no time for mealy-mouthed delivery of platitudes or sales pitches. There is a fire in the theater, and I am yelling 'Fire'. I am not going to sit there like one of your buttheads and say, "Excuse me sir, but if I may be so bold as to enter your space and possibly disturb your self-esteem, but we are about to be enveloped in an incendiary excursion. Might I be so forward as to suggest that in order to avoid third degree burns over 99% of your body that you motivate your family to ambulate in the direction of the nearest exit?"

By that time we are all toast. So you screw around with your panty- waist nonsense. I do not give a royal rat's ass 'who' accepts what I have to say. The bottom line is this. If they do not, they are dead. I do not suffer fools. And I certainly won't suffer you.

-- Paul Milne (fedinfo@halifax.com), November 30, 1998.

Paul Milne:

Matthew 5: 21-26

-- Lois Knorr (knorr@attcanada.net), December 01, 1998.

Milne,

When you are overrun, and your last sight is your goods being divided, remember that here you were warned to become a human being.

Being able to refrain from rage and abuse is not only the basis of effective communication, but a good survival strategy.

E.

-- E. Coli (nunayo@beeswax.com), December 01, 1998.

Mr. Milne,

You say, "Let me clue you in as to the gravity, Diane. People are about to DIE, stupid." You later refer to "mountains of evidence." Can you please share some real evidence that proves conclusively that people are going to die? That might help with your stated desire to get the message across. Otherwise, without backing up your claims, your intended message is lost in the noise of your ranting.

Later in the same paragraph you say "I don't think it is a joking matter. It is literally, deadly serious." I have no doubt that you feel this way. However, if you really wish to get your mesage heard by more than a trivial number of people, you must realize that your current delivery style will cause you to be considered a joke by most people. How many people here have reacted with distress at the potrayal of the Y2K-concerned as "wild-eyed survivalist kooks?" Your insults and hysterical tone are precisely the sort of thing that people point to when making that generalization. You are not only souring your own message, but causing the words of others to be ignored as well.

You have said that you really don't care what people think of you or your message. You then contradict yourself by saying that you are trying to send a message as loudly as possible so that more people hear you. If the first is true, then sign off and shut up; we heard you already. If the second is true (and based on your tenacity I suspect that this is the true situation) then consider this: People who aren't listening can't hear you, and by insisting on packing at least three insults per paragraph you keep all but a few people who already agree with you from listening.

Do you really want to have an impact? The choice is up to you.

-- Paul Neuhardt (neuhardt@ultranet.com), December 01, 1998.

Gayla,

"Lois, I would be interested to know if she starts preparing???"

Time will tell. So far she has been wavering between panic and ostrich. She discussed it with the "cafeteria crowd", who said they were sure the problem would be fixed, then she discussed it with her husband, who agreed to buy a wood-burning stove. Overnight, who knows to whom she talked. Today, she wasn't saying anything. This morning, I left preparation information from the Cassandra Project on her desk for her to photocopy. I am willing to discuss the ramifications of Y2K if people who are in question mode, but I refuse to argue as to whether TEOTWAWKI is an accurate assessment. I will keep you informed of developments, but for now it looks like she may have stuck her head back into the safe dark place.

-- Lois Knorr (knorr@attcanada.net), December 02, 1998.

Hey you, needledick, yeah you Paul Milne. Got your attention? You listning? good.

Diane a.k.a. Dizzy Broad, has been very effective getting the word out to newspapers, and from just that, I'd say that she beats you by more than just 10%. You have a limited internet/usenet audience. Newspapers get to "the masses".

I thought I'd lower myself to your level to make sure you understood what I wanted to tell you.

-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), December 02, 1998.

"How many people here have reacted with distress at the potrayal of the Y2K-concerned as "wild-eyed survivalist kooks?" " -- Paul N.

I love it. It's OK to be concerned about y2k, but God forbid that someone would regard you as a kook, eh? And just how do we re- arrange the deck chairs on the Titanic?

Some of us will sit and quietly argue that it's going to be bad. Others will shout it from the rooftops, ala Paul Milne. And, as this thread has amply demonstrated, there are a number who will simply shoot the messenger if they disagee with the manner of his presentation or if he can be envisioned as bringing disrepute to them

You don't like Paul's manner? Don't read him. Ignore him. It's that simple.

But, the truth is that Paul will reach some people, Diane will reach some people, and Arnie, Unc and RD will reach some. Some respond to being wacked over the head, others to a little sugar.

The sad part is that we are running out of time. Paul is right in that regard. And, as we run out of time we run out of options.

We have only about 30 days until we reach 1999. Does sugar take too long?

The clock's running. Yes, we can email media. We can hope to get programs that hit harder. When? We needed these wake up calls a year ago.

Stop fighting among yourselves like a bunch of school kids. Go get people to prepare. If you have to call them butthead, call them butthead, and if they need a little sugar, give them a little sugar -- but do it. You don't have a lot of time. Neither do they.

-- rocky (rknolls@hotmail.com), December 02, 1998.

" It's OK to be concerned about y2k, but God forbid that someone would regard you as a kook, eh? "

You may have missed my point. I'll restate it. If Paul Milne wants to get his message across to more than a very few people, he cannot allow himself to be percieved as a a "kook." Since he has said he wishes to reach as many people as possible, I believe he needs to alter his approach. I was offering unsolicited (and almost certainly unwanted and unheeded) advice.

The fact of the matter is, the vast majority of people don't listen to messages coming from sources they percieve to be irrational, and believe me, Milne's presentation makes him appear that way.

(I have a mental image of a Jeopardy game: "The answer is "Y2K reactionary whose favorite word is 'butthead'." Buzz. " Yes, Contestant 1?" "Who is Paul Milne?" "Correct!")

-- Paul Neuhardt (neuhardt@ultranet.com), December 02, 1998.

Milne,

If you don't suffer dummies, I guess your house must be devoid of mirrors.

Sorry, man, but I can see nothing good in what you say, or how you say it. You harm the cause. Do you really think the general public will benefit from your scathing attacks towards those who are aware of Y2K, but might not agree with you? What will a Y2K neophyte think when he/she comes into a forum such as this and sees you hitting well-meaning people in the head with your verbal sledgehammer? I've seen people fall out of going to church over similar behaviors, and so have you.....think about it.

I think you'll have a lot of crow to eat come 1-20-2000. Worse, if you were really self-aware, I think you'd see that you have a lot of crow to eat right now.

Of course I'm a butthead to you, but until you rise to the level of the Almighty, and possess all knowledge, you're just another (very) fallible human to me.

-- John Howard (Greenville, NC) (pcdir@prodigy.net), December 02, 1998.

Mr. Milne,

You owe Diane an apology. If I ever heard you talk to a women that way you'd have a lot more to worry about than y2k.

-- Not Important (Don'tlikeyour@disrespect.jerk), December 02, 1998.

Paul M.- What you said to Diane was absolutely out of line, even for you. Every forum seems to have a different expectation of where the line is, and you definitely crossed this one's. I hope that you will apologize. Thank you.

-- Jack (jsprat@eld.net), December 03, 1998.