I don't have time to open every post in the archives here (which might answer this question), and there's no way to search through all the messages.

I've been wondering how many of you here are acquainted with Douglass Carmichael's writings on the wider implications of Y2K, both presently and in whatever future lies ahead.

I think he opens some useful perspectives on this situation.

Some links worth opening, IMO:

href=http://www.tmn.com/~doug/resourcesy2k.htm>(general t.o.c.)

href=http://www.tmn.com/y2k/>y2k : The social causes and social impact

href=http://www.tmn.com/y2k/y2kwho.htm>Year 2000: who will do what and when will they do it?

href=http://www.tmn.com/~doug/dcnote1.htm>Social psychology of y2k: Trying to understand the denial

A clip from this last, on the foundations of denial:

"I believe people have come to rely on technology as an alternative world to the human: our bodies are much more a symbol added to technology and the underway around. The idea of that everything can be fixed is part of our deep belief. Conversation with a good friend clarified this for me. Our near total belief in things like money, gross national product, the sanctity of jobs, the free market, the invisible hand, can be seen, if we look at our society with the eye of an anthropologist, to be basically, fundamentally, profoundly religious. From this perspective we can say that we have been living in one of the great ages of faith in history. From our commuting, our coffee breaks, our mail-order catalogs, our insurance forms and the general pattern of daily live, we can say this is one of the most highly ritualized societies in history. To question all this by suggesting y2k makes a mess of it raises profound anxiety.

"Perhaps at some level people know they have accommodated their life to this proposition and they sense that it might fail, that they have made a fundamental and brutal mistake. This realization could be touching on a profound core of rage towards both the authority and the self , towards the managers to whom they gave allegiance and towards the workers on whom they have been dependent."

-- Tom Carey (tomcarey@mindspring.com), November 10, 1998

Answers

Most certainly, we are about to live in interesting times and possibly ride the dangerous winds of opportunity to do it better on the other side of 2000.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), November 11, 1998.

****"Perhaps at some level people know they have accommodated their life to this proposition and they sense that it might fail, that they have made a fundamental and brutal mistake. This realization could be touching on a profound core of rage towards both the authority and the self , towards the managers to whom they gave allegiance and towards the workers on whom they have been dependent." *****

Amazing and courageous bit of writing here...It has been my experience in my own life, and in my observations of those close to me...The epiphanal moment (seeming) when there is a near simultaneous collapse of all the illusions,...the inability to lie to oneself anymore......the anger that comes up from deep within. I studied to be a therapist at one time...worked as a counselor. My experience in study and practice led to several conclusions...One: that I needed to focus on MY growth, and I quit the graduate program, stopped projecting my desire to fix upon others...Two: I saw daily that everyone's journey through their "waking" had a different shape and duration, and that I could influence it very little, if at all. Moreover, on some level I grew uncomfortable with the very notion of "assisting" some one else...Reminds me of a poem I posted in another thread here...from Adrienne Rich "Prospective Immigrants Please Note". The first line goes something like:

"Either you will go through this door, or you will not go through."

I'm ambling about here,...the nature of the discussion I think, fuzzy, hard to nail down into anything quantifiable.

Anyway, thank you for reminding me of Carmichel, Tom. This all also reminds me of a book I was very fond of years ago, by Sheldon Kopp, "If you Meet the Buddha On The Road, Kill Him". All I can do is stand and say to people: "I do not expect you to follow me in order to get to yourself, in fact you cannot. You will not find you here. Follow you to your waking self, and I will stand beside you while on my own journey." It speaks of Y2K to me, and about what I do to survive and thrive beyond it.

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), November 11, 1998.

The statement

"The idea of that everything can be fixed is part of our deep belief."

is probably the best explanation of advanced Y2K denial -- i.e., Y2K denial after it is accepted that Y2K is a real and serious problem -- that anyone could ever come up with.

-- Jack (jsprat@eld.net), November 11, 1998.

Thanks for reminding me of this stuff again. I had read part of it much earlier but was still quite deep in denial/shock/disbelief at that time and wasn't really ready to hear what he was saying. His position seemed extreme to me at the time and I just wasn't 'getting it'. Today, I see his position as one of hope and think he offers a very positive twist on a depressing situation (especially the "Who will do what when" piece).

I find Douglass Carmichael's writing is quite fascinating. As I continued to research Y2K it became clear that Y2K wasn't happening in a vacuum - i.e. the context in which these problem will occur has great bearing on the consequences. It wasn't enough just to look at the 'technical problem' - though initially, me being from the technical side of the fence and all, that's all I wanted to hear about. As I now attempt to understand 'the bigger picture' (everyone seems to have the own take own this one), I find he has spent quite a bit of time thinking this through. I especially liked his 11 step suggestions. I'd already been recommending a few of these things. I'm not sure I agree with everything but he is offering positive suggestions for dealing with negative events. This in itself is refreshing.

I have also been fascinated by the 4-quadrant "David Isenberg diagram" since I first came across it the Futurist magazine articleThe Year 2000: Social Chaos or Social Transformation? article. It is a simple but excellent tool for thinking about this problem

Thanks for the link. It's given me more good brain food.

-Arnie

-- Arnie Rimmer (Arnie_Rimmer@usa.net), November 12, 1998.