I've noticed a lot of posts here that combine faith and factual logic in making plans for what now appears to be an inevitability. As a relative newcommer (I've only been aware of Y2K for 4 months), I've prepared myself & family as best as I'm able. I thought I might share the reasons I've done what many may think is paranoid panic.

Regardless of how you should prepare, the point is to get ready. I've known deep-down the last few years that we as a nation were heading towards big trouble. I didn't know exactly what it was, but I was watching our nation become more corrupt, selfish, agitated, victimized, and lazy. I watched the people of this great nation become dependant on government handouts for survival, "feel-good" remedies for every ailment, take for granted technological advances that make instant gratification and services a basic necessity. I've watched our morals and family values ridiculed by the media until they flushed down the toilet as the popularity of a Jerry Springer mentality swept the nation. I watch a nation so selfish and greedy to hold onto stability that they will overlook the rule of law to keep a corrupt administration from being held to a standard of law that each and every one of us "little" people would be held to. In short, we are a nation divided among so many lines, that if the fabric of society would ever unzip--it would never be put together again because the lack of trust would replace the reliance on law and decency. Y2K may very well be the force that unzips everything. Face it, among racial, economic, class, gender, sexual preference and ideology we have been increasingly set at odds over the last 30 years. Over the last six it has increased multi-fold under a leader who claims to "heal" these divisions while exploiting them for political gain, even while we have enjoyed record comfort and prosperity.

I had believed that an economic setback would set this whole thing off. I mean, ask yourself...If this were 1973 again, can you picture the vast majority of Americans patiently wait hours on end for a gallon of gas? If you do, then you must spend your life watching cartoons. Just take a look at the big picture globally: Japan has been in recession for over 8 years now, their banks are on the verge of collapse...South America is about to implode just as Russia's economy did...and speaking of Russia, nuke proliferation in desperation for cash. You have N. Korea firing 3 stage rockets past Japan towards Hawaii, Iran and Iraq are racing to have weapons of mass destruction, India and Pakistan are ante'ing up the odds of a nuclear conflict as China provided recently acquired multi-stage guidance systems for ICBMs to Pakistan from the Clinton administration. Indonesia's economy collapsed, the failing IMF causing more grief, the scandals in this country...the social fights between Republicans & Democrats, I figured all it would take to create a firestorm of panic would be an economic dump. I mean if they will riot over a jury verdict in California, or over a Bull's championship in Chicago, segments of our society are ready to go beserk. We are ready to crack. But under it all folks is our total dependance on lightning-fast information transfers that power our way of life: the computer. It's a powder keg just waiting to be lit. My guess is the fuse and flame will be Y2K, and it's a short fuse that may turn a bad situation, worse.

What I'm getting at is that the mentality of Western society is ready to crack, while things are good. To bring God into the picture briefly as others have done...Jesus had said while dragging the stake he was to be crucified on, "Weep not for me, but for yourselves and your children...for if they will do this to me when the tree is green, what will they do to you when the tree is dry?" Jesus was referring to the fall of Jerusalem in 70A.D. where the Romans lay seige for over 3 months wherein women ate their own children within Jerusalem's walls. But how much of that truth may apply to us today? If people are threatening violence if they don't receive welfare or bi-lingual education programs, what will they do when essential services like heat and water cease to function?

Does anyone doubt that God has blessed our nation with great abundance and prosperity not seen in the entire written history of man? We did not create the wealth of natural resources in this nation, God did...and we have been abundantly blessed as a result of our obedience to laws that are based in scripture. But as of late, our dependance on technology has not only replaced our dependance on God, but our morality as defined by God has been redefined. Biblical history shows that every time a nation God had blessed forsook obedience to His laws and redefined them, God allowed them to be destroyed. Do we think we're any different? We claim to be a "religious" nation, but the news over the past few years is quite contrary to the definition God would have of a "just" nation. Everyone does and thinks what is right in his or her own mind. There are no more standards...of conduct or decency. We have defined deviancy down, to do what feels good. How much longer can we hold on before the natural consequences of division and reliance on man-made systems bring us down? How ironic isn't it? The same technology that separated us from reliance on God, the land and our family foundation, will be the technology that ultimately destroys us.

That's the big picture. Some folks are motivated by mere facts and secular logic, others are motivated by faith and religion. Put these two together and you still have the same conclusion: We're in big trouble, of our own making.

I was making plans to get out of the 'burbs of Chicago (albeit my timetable wasn't for another two years) before an economic hiccup caused soccer moms and suburbanites to go insane at the loss of their 401K and other investments. When my Mac went down last Spring, I learned about Y2K from the chap that fixed it. Since then I've learned enough about the problem, and the inability to fix it in time to put 2 and 2 together to see that we are in for an implosion of the likes we have never experienced. We are so far removed from being able to live off the land, and so far removed from common decency anymore, I began to see an apocalyptic event unfolding.

With articles about National Guard units and Marines training for urban combat, reports from ITT directors and programmers stating the hopelessness of the situation to last week's Nightline program, I say that I got out of dodge at just the right time. We are out of Urbania and in the far country--WAY far country. We're preparing for family to join us (much like Dr. Olmstead), learning to live off the land and yes arming ourselves to the teeth. Sorry to you anti-gun zealots, but human nature is human nature, and if jerks will shoot people over the way they drive, I am damn sure they will shoot you for what you have when they are hungry and mad. As my wife & I already experienced, there is great respect and avoidance of conflict when you are armed.

As for food storage, water and other self-preserving ways of sustaining ourselves, I have to thank many of you for posting instructions and opinions of what it will take for survival.

But being ready for Y2K begins with mental preparedness. You have to mantally prepare for the "worst case scenario", so that if it does occur, you are ready for it. If it doesn't occur to the severity you imagine, you stand alot taller being ready for the minor inconveniences you will need to work on during a Y2K breakdown. I'd like to think that the nation is in for a "spiritual spanking". What father doesn't discipline his children to make them better people? I'd like to think the same. We will need to turn back to the land, and to God. Things will be bad, perhaps worse than I imagine. But being ready to deal with hardship in a medieval sense can only make us stronger. Mankind must go through some deep dark tribulations to grow in character, but I know we all win in the end. It's getting through it that will be the greatest challenge our society and perhaps the world will ever face.

If a numnut like me, who only has Mac graphic experience can see what's coming and prepare, how much better will all of us be if we heed those warnings and prepare as a whole?

-- Mike Deering (mdeering@wk.net), October 26, 1998

Answers

. . . and Amen.

-- Amen (amen@amen.amen), October 26, 1998.

A duplicate copy...

Anti-gun zealots? Who is the zealot here.

Why would an anti-gun zealot not personally choose the gun laden, armed-to-the-teeth Y2K scenario? For myself, I just happen to have an appreciation for life. I also have faith that some people out there will really walk their talk ... and actually love one another, not kill one another. Like their teacher taught them.

Im willing to die for my beliefs, because I KNOW its not the end. Its just another beginning, on this planet, or if we collectively destroy it, another one out there in that vast star-studded sky we look at but dont SEE. Are you willing to LIVE for your beliefs?

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), October 26, 1998.

Diane A Sacrificial Lamb?

I did not suggest that those who desire peace do not envision a horrific "armed-to-the-teeth" doomsday scenario. My family & I cherish and appreciate life as much as yourself or anyone else for that matter. Some suggest that just because I'm armed I gleefully await the apocalypse. I resent that. I shudder at the thought that things could get medieval in the near future because I have 3 small kids I want to see grow up in prosperity.

But as I said, people now are spoiled and ready to snap and blame anyone they percieve might take away their good time. If people have to wait in line for fuel, food or heat, it will get ugly as soon as they perceive someone may have more than themselves.

Regardless whether you have "faith" that people will love one another in dire circumstances does not replace the fact that we have the highest murder rate in the world, and times are good! When this spoiled nation 3 generations removed from any real hardship and sacrifice is hit with Y2K reality, whether you want to believe it or not, those that have, or perceived to have, will be hunted by those that do not have. Not to mention those that may be blamed for the calamity. Mankind has a penchant for doing that historically.

As far as "appreciating life" as you say, the last five years the sanctity of life has been diminished. Just review the news: Abortions, assisted suicides, a family murdered and a fetus cut from the womb, a murderer set free due to race...etc, etc. We have become desensitized to violent crime, we accept it as the 'norm' of living in a free society. So much for our society 'appreciating life'.

In response to your question if I'm willing to live and die by my beliefs...I must first douse any assumption that just because I may wish to defend myself and family with arms somehow negates the fact that I wish to live. That being armed somehow invalidates my beliefs is simply shallow-agenda-minded BS. But to answer your question... I intend to do both, to live my beliefs and die for them, specifically for freedom. Freedom from lawlessness, freedom from totalitarianism, and freedom to live.

Because I wish to live and perhaps die for that freedom does not mean I wish to become some kind of perverted sacrificial lamb. Jesus did not just stand there and let others stone him for stating His relationship with the Father. The common understanding to "Turn the other cheek" does not mean to become a rug for others to stomp on. God has harsh words for those who would not provide safety and sustenance for their own family.

Just because I may wish people will love one another in adversity does not mean it will happen just because you have blind "faith" that they will. The world is evil. David himself wondered why the wicked prospered. Though there may be groups that commune together to share, I guarantee you that they will become targets by those that are lawless and hungry. Religion will have no bearing at that point.

I am not a gun zealot. I guess I'm a survival zealot, because those tools will be necessary to hunt food and and protect my family. I'm armed because I wish to live, but if I lose my life defending it, well that's what separates those who truly wish to live and those who simply exist.

-- Mike Deering (mdeering@wk.net), October 26, 1998.

"...the last five years the sanctity of life has been diminished. Just review the news: Abortions, assisted suicides, a family murdered and a fetus cut from the womb, a murderer set free due to race...etc, etc. We have become desensitized to violent crime, we accept it as the 'norm' of living in a free society"

Don't forget anti-abortionists murdering the abortionists (anti-murderers murdering the murderers?)

Couldn't agree with you more Mike, lawlessness is rampant and pervasive.

Still, I'm with Diane on this one. Everyone rushing to get a gun is the eye-for-an-eye solution. I'd rather go the extra length, do the extra research, spend the extra money to find the safest place or learn to protect myself without having to buy a gun. BUT, I don't mean to say that those who already know how to use guns safely and would know how to use them in self-defense are wrong. I just don't agree with the idea of promoting buying a gun for the first time, in preparation of y2k.

-- Chris (Catsy@pond.com), October 26, 1998.

Mike,

I dont even remotely dispute the fact that you are concerned about your family and will do all you can to protect them. Making this a religious dispute is pretty pointless too, we dont have the luxury of that kind of time. So I wont.

What really bothers me in watching the news, reading the Y2K websites, and generally (albeit recently) reading the threads here and at other sites, is that everyone appears to be focused on how they can stock up and protect their families from maurading gangs of hungry ravengers.

Yes there is murder. Yes there are horrible atrocities. Why do we think this is so overwhelmingly pervasive that we can see no other options? Because that is what our media focuses our attention on. And we accept it as total truth, and accept them for doing so. Ive observed, where attention goes, energy flows. My unsubstantiated, PFA (pluck-from-air) guess is that those crimes represent, at most, about 1-5% of the actions of the total global population. Most people try to help their communities, most people care, and a good many of them have children that they want to see a better future for.

What I would really like to see in the next year -- from all of us interested in Y2K and on a global scale -- is a complete and committed focus on ways that we can help one another get through this thing, cooperatively. However long it takes after the 2000 turn -- 2 weeks, two months, two years, ten years. What about creating a positive contingency planning forum to help individuals, communities, county governments, state governments and nations come together?? Especially while we can still communicate effectively? Is there such a site??

We can either put all our focus on the things that push the FEAR factor over the top, and talk about it continuously, or we can admit theres a major problem facing this whole plant and meet it head on, with courage. As a manager, I always had my co-workers come to me with solutions, not problems. I suggest we all take on that focus now. Lets start looking at what works, not at what doesnt. (By that I dont mean Y2K compliant computer systems).

This country also has a positive history of (finally) mobilizing when they had to. Many of the people who went through the Great Depression, hadnt done it before. They learned on the job as it were. Many of the WWII survivors went through amazing amounts of challenge, shortages, rationing, etc. They emerged, and transformed their deprivation into a boom time. In the 70s, I waited in those gas lines, too. I know I can do it again, and help teach those who havent, to be patient and calm, by example.

I lived in the L.A. area when the Rodney King riots happened. For all the focus on what was going wrong, the bulk of that vast community was NOT rioting. I went through the Northridge Quake in 94. At some point Ill write about it. Again people were not rioting, there were living in the parks. Outside the area vendors like Arrowhead Water mobilized like an army to see that extra water was brought into the devastated areas. Later I went through the experience of a whole town evacuating due to forest fire. We can rise to the occasion, especially if that is our focus.

My hope is that we all seriously choose to Think Globally, and Act Locally. For the greater good, and not just our personal good. If the bulk of us do it, chances are, the rest who would be tempted to grasp and grab, will join us.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), October 26, 1998.

Diane: Per your last post, You're living in denial. Or at least in fantasyland. I know that the power of positive thinking goes a long way personally, but nationally? When thousands are cold and hungry? When rich and poor alike are faced with the same fate? When some leaders may grandstand for power by playing on the suffering by placing blame for the problems? We don't know what it's like to really suffer in this nation. We have been spoiled rotten!

Your intentions and attitude are noble Diane, and I really wish this nation was made up of the attitude that you describe so eloquently, as I would not worry so much about getting through this thing. However, making yourself a committee of one and making efforts in your own circle is a start to cooperation and survival. It does not mean the rest of the nation will follow. And you are right about the percentage of criminals and law-abiding citizens--at the moment. But I have to tell you, that ratio is rapidly falling, and it will fall even quicker when people start doing without.

You wrote: ...that everyone appears to be focused on how they can stock up and protect their families from maurading gangs of hungry ravengers.

Why do you think that is Diane? Many of us can see the handwriting on the wall. The attitude of the people in our communities and our national attitude has changed over recent years. It is one of less tolerance, selfishness, the 'gimme. gimme's' if you will. Tell me we don't play the blame game for all of our short comings. Tell me that we are still a nation of personal responsibility and I will tell you that you're a blind idiot. I watched my old suburban upper middle class suburb go beserk last summer when the power was out for 2 days. People were still going nuts because it took a week to get cable back! Tensions were ready to snap, neighbors had gotten into more arguments than normal, they were ready to march on the village council because all their freezer foods were ruined and the village didn't do anything about it. Then there was talk of suing the electric company for losses! We don't know what it is to sacrifice, to do without. Our focus has been GETTING the latest STUFF for our own egos and comfort.

I'll agree that it is amazing to see communities come together after a NATURAL DISASTER, when aid comes streaming in from all corners of the country. But Y2K is different. It will be a disaster that affects the entire globe. From where will aid come? From within?? Read my above paragraph again and you might understand why many of us are preparing for the roving, armed, hungry, lawless bands. I also see a nation in panic of losing what it has, putting all its faith in one person to "save" them from the coming tribulation. I can easily see people giving up their freedoms towards drastic "Martial Directives". However you slice it, anarchy or totalitarianism, our preparations are the same. I won't live under either kind of yoke.

You also wrote: This country also has a positive history of (finally) mobilizing when they had to. Many of the people who went through the Great Depression, hadnt done it before. They learned on the job as it were. Many of the WWII survivors went through amazing amounts of challenge, shortages, rationing, etc. They emerged, and transformed their deprivation into a boom time. In the 70s, I waited in those gas lines, too. I know I can do it again, and help teach those who havent, to be patient and calm, by example.

Once again Diane, you either don't see or don't WANT to see the change in our national character over the last 2 decades. The WWII generation built this nation to the prosperity it has today. I WISH this nation was made up of the kind of people that that generation was made of, and we would sail through Y2K. But that generation Diane, was more of a nuclear-family & agricultural society that knew how to farm, make do, save money, treat others with respect and provide hospitality to guests. You cannot honestly describe the generation living and running things now in the same way. We have been spoiled, and EXPECT the way of life we now take for granted. You think that once these comforts are gone overnight that this generation will sit quietly by and share with one another what little they have, waiting patiently for the next food or water truck? If you do, as I said before, you are a blind idiot as to the selfish nature we as a nation have become.

It's not the FEAR of what's coming Diane, it's the FACT of what is already happening with the possibilities of disruptions due to Y2K. This is why there are many posts about preparing to defend what we have stored. This is why there are discussions about firearms and hiding in safe places (if there will be such places). See the big picture Diane, see what our government is doing, see the standards of the people flush in favor of their every whim, see people justify everything by their feelings. See the world we live in on the verge of total eruption. It may well be the birth-pangs to a new age, but the pain to get there will be horrific for those of us living in the near future.

Finding solutions and cooperating together to fix the damage caused by the Y2K bug may only happen when the realization hits those of us left that unless we do work together, we run the risk of Western Civilization going the way of the Dodo. That attitude doesn't exist now. Perhaps not ever. Let's hope not.

In the meantime, we are prpearing for medievalism because unless our national heart changes right quick, that is where we will end up. And if it doesn't happen, then great. We were prepared for it anyway. No loss.

-- Mike Deering (mdeering@wk.net), October 27, 1998.

Good thread. I tend to agree more with Mike. Although one would say my nature is that of diane. ( i am confused) Part of me KNOWS I have taken LOTZ for granted. Too much in fact. I have became ungrateful, unthankful, and insensitive to others needs. It would be GREAT if we ALL had the nature of Diane, and ACTED on it. But in these perilous times ahead, I just dont forsee keeping that intact. I pray I would, but I like most, am uncertain, and afraid. I have a strong belief in God, but NOT in Man. My mom died when i was 19, that was 17 years ago. They had just came out with Beta VCR. No atm's yet. If mom were here today, (and I wish she were) she would freak. My mom taught me to GIVE my last $$ to someone who NEEDED it. That was how I was raised. Today I still find myself giving as mom had taught. The difference and my point.....

Today when I give, I find myself getting "used" . Over the past 17 years, my heart has grown hard/colder. Yet, I want to still love and help others. But now I realize not ALL feel this way. Where I was never before I now find myself.....SELECTIVE on whom I choose to help. my mom would KILL me....If you really want a Dose of "reality" think about a loved one who has passed away say 17-20 years ago, what was it like when they died? Where are we now>??????

-- consumer alert (private@aol.com), October 27, 1998.

You "blissed out" new agers don't think there will be marauding mobs if power goes out for > 1 week and grocery store supplies --> 0 ?

Were you asleep or just contemplating your navel when, for example, the Los Angeles riots were televised?

Or are you too stupid to extrapolate and learn from history?

-- bubba (okie@kenoke.com), October 27, 1998.

continued:

I am far from religious, but Christians of Deering's type make a hell of a lot more sense than the "Cain't we just get along" crowd.

-- bubba (okie@kenoke.com), October 27, 1998.

Denial, Mike?

The only trips down De Nile I see going on here is that youre planning to jump into a river infested with crocodiles, and Im asking that we consider building papyrus boats that carry more than one small family.

Fantasyland?

The whole things an illusion Mike. At this second in time, someones getting murdered, couples are making love, a family is stocking up on survival food, another kids concentrating on his homework, a biker is racing down a mountain road, a truckers eatin grits, a womans getting raped, The Presidents buying new pants, Congress is focused on Novembers elections, my local bankers watching the Japan situation, a Y2K programmer is sleepless, my neighbors sipping a latte, and on, and on...

Simultaneous realities Mike. People creating their own reality because thats where their focus is -- entirely different from anyone elses experience. Once in awhile a larger group gathers together on some event, like Monica et. al. (no I did not read that report). What people think about that event is what makes news. What people DO about that event, and know how to grab the spotlight, determines what more people will say and DO.

Call me an optimist. As the Y2K situation progresses into early next year, and we start seeing the first retail sector accounting glitches garnering media attention, you might be able to bet with some degree of accuracy, that the medias going to turn up the Y2K dial. Where and on what will they focus? On those who can beam out huge search lights that say -- look what were doing over here!!! That takes some advance contingency planning.

Know what Id like to see? Folks like Martha Stewart showing the country how to prepare for all of us. How to build rooftop gardens, grow patio vegetables, gather on the land for growing partys, plan to have organized Farmers Markets in every town, city and major metropolitan center. Plan for a pony express alternative (what the h* ll, if it doesnt happen well hand out tickets for pony rides). Maybe Y2K slogans like Y2K Home-Grown Vegetable Surplus Or Bust! Get the drift? Mobilize the country to make it, not break it.

Lets start the process now to make sure the nations thousands are only partially cold and occasionally hungry. That they can see an end to Y2K consequences, know the action plan, know how they can contribute, are taught to learn whats important.

 Your intentions and attitude are noble Diane, and I really wish this nation was made up of, the attitude that you describe so eloquently. -- Mike

Well, if weve lost it Mike, for the Y2K savvy, why dont we start creating a new attitude? Over the next six months there are going to be a lot of Y2K toddlers coming online, who are going to need some handholding. Are we going to introduce those babes-in-the-city-parks to Apocalypse Now? Or can we create something more lasting? An action plan for group cooperation from the home kitchen garden to the National Forest herb farms? Alternate Water distribution systems? Candle and soap making classes? All concurrent with a computer programmer race to the global finish line of December 31, 1999? Id much rather not be a committee of one, Mike, but a community of millions, even billions. Will you join?

You are right about the percentage of criminals and law-abiding citizens--at the moment. But I have to tell you, that ratio is rapidly falling, and it will fall even quicker when people start doing without. -- Mike

Then lets start planning so they dont have to do without. Just less. Lets give them a goal.

Many of us can see the handwriting on the wall ... I watched my old suburban upper middle class suburb go beserk last summer when the power was out for 2 days. People were still going nuts because it took a week to get cable back! Tensions were ready to snap, neighbors had gotten into more arguments than normal, they were ready to march on the village council because all their freezer foods were ruined and the village didn't do anything about it. -- Mike

Lets paint over the wall Mike. Teams of people all across the country already white wash the grafitti, and pick up the litter. How about writing on that wall with positive solutions, rather than lamenting the escalating problems? (And I dont mean a government white wash either). Give them the truth, then spell out the ways we can tackle our creative future.

The people in your suburb werent prepared. It happened suddenly, with out warning. When you go camping or on vacation do you get ready first? Do you have an idea of where you are going and have you purchased your tickets with a destination in mind? The outcome you are planning for, is NOT one I choose to sign up for. I definitely do not what to be on your bunker cruise-ship. Ill book a different trip thank you.

It is amazing to see communities come together after a NATURAL DISASTER, when aid comes streaming in from all corners of the country. But Y2K is different. It will be a disaster that affects the entire globe. From where will aid come? From within?? -- Mike

From within is the only place it can come from, in a global disaster. Lets make sure our within works.

I also see a nation in panic of losing what it has, putting all its faith in one person to "save" them from the coming tribulation. I can easily see people giving up their freedoms towards drastic Martial Directives. However you slice it, anarchy or totalitarianism, our preparations are the same. I won't live under either kind of yoke.  -- Mike

I see a nation that could, through choice and grass-roots efforts, decide to put its faith in one another, in the nation of individuals, rather expecting someone else to save them. IF THEY HAD A PLAN. If you dont, then yes, you do increase the likelihood of Martial Directives. You may certainly not want to live under it, youll more likely die under it. Why dont we use our freedom now to to not create that as our only option. As our govenments only survival option. The military is made up of individuals with families too. I vote for someone like Colin Powell to head up the Y2K distributions task-force. He can move fast, and I think he has a heart.

I prefer slicing a different pie Mike, and preparing different ingredients.

I WISH this nation was made up of the kind of people that that generation [WWII] was made of, and we would sail through Y2K ... But that generation Diane, was more of a nuclear-family & agricultural society that knew how to farm, make do, save money, treat others with respect and provide hospitality to guests. You cannot honestly describe the generation living and running things now in the same way. -- Mike

Actually, I can. And the bulk of people are. Give us a fighting chance, and you just might find we are. This country does have a positive history of (finally) mobilizing when they had to -- for the past 200 plus years! Mobilize the teachers in all walks of life and we just might do it. Show them how -- on videotape. The younger ones will get that. Mobilize MTV, rock stars and movie stars. Get the positive word out through people they already listen to. We have slightly over one year and counting down.

I find Arnies quote on another thread appropriate here ... "The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn. " -- Alvin Toffler

It's not the FEAR of what's coming Diane, it's the FACT of what is already happening with the possibilities of disruptions due to Y2K. This is why there are many posts about preparing to defend what we have stored. This is why there are discussions about firearms and hiding in safe places (if there will be such places). See the big picture Diane, see what our government is doing ... -- Mike

I see a lot bigger picture Mike. Who was it who said the best defense is a good offense? The FACT is we dont have to ripple out the FEAR. The FACTs are changing daily. The FACT is we can create our reality, we have a little time, not much to do it. The FACT is a good portion of the survivalists are thinking way too small. Expand your opportunities. Make them happen. Our Government is us, not them.

See the world we live in on the verge of total eruption. It may well be the birth-pangs to a new age, but the pain to get there will be horrific for those of us living in the near future. -- Mike

I see the world on the verge of our greatest global challenge, in millennia. Its the big one Mike and it started in California. It didnt remain localized, its going to rattle the ground and break the dishes in India, China, Europe, South America, North America, Africa, Australia, Japan, Indonesia ... and the strength of its impact -- whether it is a 10 plus on the Richter scale or a 5 or a 2 -- depends on the choices we ALL make now. Choose to prepare for anarchy and terrorism dominating and sure as shootin thats what youll get. If the vast majority of us choose to grow urban gardens THIS SPRING and mobilize our media, our rock and film stars, and (god forbid) actually talk positively about something REALLY important, on the web, or with those neighbors we barely smile at, because we finally have a compelling reason to do so, then maybe, just maybe we might create that New Age, and experience a smoother birth to a new global nation. Not one for one, but all for all.

Nuf said, fer now. Gotta get me a job, not a gun.

Peace, Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), October 27, 1998.

There are examples and plans. There are people mobilizing.

Larry Burkett, of Christian Financial Concepts, had a braoadcast recently. Here is the transcript.

An excerpt:

Moore: Larry Burkett believes an organization already exists that can begin Y2K preparation now in every community.

Burkett: "We have the best potential organization in America. . . . We just don't use it. We don't work together, mostly because we don't need each other too much. It's called the church. What you and I cannot do individually we can all do collectively. . . . We have to learn to work together." (applause)

Moore: Shaunti Feldhahn is the founder of the Joseph Project, a group that's helping churches make Y2K preparations.

Feldhahn: "In looking through some of the stories in the Bible, particularly the Joseph story about Joseph in Egypt, there is a real, real biblical model for seeing something coming in the future that could potentially have some consequences and taking some action. In particular, in the Joseph story. . .he was warned about a coming famine. . . . [H]e saved up. . .during a time of great prosperity, he got other people to save up and prepare. And then when the famine actually hit, he was not only able to protect himself and his country -- Egypt, at that time -- but to bless all the surrounding communities, as well, saving Israel in the process, of course. And this is an incredible model for how we as Christians can really have an impact on our communities during a potential time of turmoil."

Moore: Douglas Wilson pastors Community Evangelical Fellowship in Moscow, Idaho.

Wilson: "I think that Christians ought to prepare by doing those things that they should have been doing anyway. . . . You should belong to a church where the people are dependent upon one another, love one another, would sacrifice for one another. . . . We are built by God to live in community."

Moore: Again, Shaunti Feldhahn of the Joseph Project.

Feldhahn: "Whenever we see a time of potential turmoil coming, whatever it is, we do have this natural desire to say, 'What about me? What do I do to protect myself?' And that's natural and there's nothing wrong with that. But. . .this may be one of those events in history that really challenges us and presents us with a really wonderful opportunity to apply the Golden Rule, to love our neighbor as ourself, in a way that I would daresay most of us, especially in America, have really never been presented with this kind of an opportunity before."

-- Donna Mittelstedt (dmittels@csuhayward.edu), October 27, 1998.

Thank you Donna!

I'll check out the site. Do you know of more?? I need to do my contingency planning homework. I feel so uninformed on how I can activate in my local area.

Love the story of Joseph. Ill re-read that. May be some great ideas there.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), October 27, 1998.

Hey everyone you can relax now. Donna J is going to save the world.

-- This aint the 50's (dream@on.donna), October 27, 1998.

Pardon me Donna I meant Diane J.

-- This aint the 50's (GetReal@Diane.J), October 27, 1998.

Diane, as the modern saying goes: "You go girl!"

What you are saying is exactly what is needed. Some people are starting to do that now. But you will find that many of the people who have been posting here for awhile have only been interested in personal preparations. They see no hope in trying to mobilize the country. I think they are wrong. I also think that more and more people are taking this seriously every day and soon it will become mainstream talk. Then I hope we will find that the "run for the hills" gang will be a minority.

Last week, I was in a meeting of my company's Y2K committee. They were not taking it seriously enough. I sat there stewing over whether to speak up and explain how serious I think the problem is. The meeting was about to break up, but I decided to speak up. Our Chief Operating Officer was there. Do you know what I did? I gave them facts. I told them about the Gartner Group testimony to Congress. I told them about the president's council. I told them how not one electric company or telephone company had claimed readiness, etc. etc. Do you know what the COO did? He made me the Y2K project manager! He said that I did good to raise the awareness level and express how urgent this is.

People will listen if you keep trying. Give them the facts. People will listen if your words are rational and not full of fear.

-- Buddy Y. (DC) (buddy@bellatlantic.net), October 27, 1998.

Folks

Much of my job takes me through some interesting neighborhoods, which, If I named them and you were over 40 you would know exactly where I live and work, because those of us of the age can conjure with the names. I drive through these areas and see several things.

First, I see land that has lain fallow for 30 - 32 years now being built on, and the houses being built are US$1/4 M to US$3/4 M houses, going up next to big, old, single and multi-family houses that survived the fires.

I see an "instant neighborhood" that has gone up in the last 3 years that SHOULD be used as a text example for urban planners in how to do the job of resurecting an area blighted by 30+ years of trauma and urban renewal.

I go three blocks north and white I, in my large black car, have concerns for my safety. Understand, I'm not prone to that feeling as I have been in the deepest part of our Projects as a Red Cross volunteer and have not ever feared for myself, which may have more to do with what I was driving, but whatever.

At 3PM on a typical day, I see drug deals go down, women selling themselves with varying levels of success, kids who show up for YouthBuild training who have no coincept of the need to do something for the money to arive, who have no idea of the concept of "an honest day's work for an honest day's pay". Theses kids are 25!! Their GRANDCHILDREN are 2!!! There is a LARGE portion of the country, and I saw it when I was a Medic, which has NEVER had to DO anything in order to get the necessities of life. These are the people we are concerned about because they have such skewed roll (and role) models as Tupak, and Biggie Smalls, and (Fill in the blank) Street Gangstaz of Whatever. And lest someone make the mistake of thinking this is a race or color issue, the Rap/Gangstaz types in many of the non-inner city communities (including the most affluent suburb in the country with the posible exception of Beverly Hills) are WHITE, WEALTHY, offspring of the very consultants who are out selling JIT to almost everybody even as we write/read! (And selling it as "Supply line rationalisation" I might add!!!)

When people who have never had the experience of the relationship between work and sustenance find that the free ride has ended, many of us are concerned that the GRAB, TAKE, GO FOR THE GUSTO ethic of GET MINE NOW folks is going to cause a serious disruption in our ability to help ourselves, and others whom we have been chalenged to minister to.

Diane, we each have our testimony and ministry. I believe mine is later. If you doubt what I have described, I invite you to come, walk the streets of the south-west end of Shaker Heights (the above referenced suburb) where the inner city and the affluent mingle, and then I will take you for a ride through our hells kitchen, and into Hough, and Glenville, to E 105 and Superior where a church is trying to make a difference, but is like a candle in a maelstrom. And I will show you the homes of the worst of the non-prepared who will clamor for defense, help, assistance and fuel for their BMW's and their Lexus's because they will not hear the siren.

cr

-- Chuck a Night Driver (rienzoo@en.com), October 27, 1998.

You got it Chuck

I have a nieghborhood like that a little too close for comfort, about 8 miles away. It is not a big place with a huge populace, but it is big enough, and the residents shoot each other often enough. Mrs Deedah HATES it when I work near the bad areas, but I go where the money takes me, and I rationalize that the worst trouble makers are still sleeping off their hangovers until it is time for me to boogie. I would not want to be caught there after dark.

Two or three weeks of no power, food, or government handouts, and I could see things getting very ugly. Even if the 'muddle through' scenario presents itself, I see crime as a real growth industry in the near future. I am not too much worried about fighting off the masses of humanity, but I will be ready to defend us from the lone wolves who seek easy prey.

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), October 27, 1998.

In response to: Bubba - Thanks man. You and I are on a similar wavelength.

In response to: Donna Mittelstedt - Yes, Donna, I think that the efforts of the churches and communities to minister are an excellent idea. I would much rather the people of this nation turn to their churches instead of the government. I applaud efforts to reach out in advance as a group to warn and prepare others to pull together. Do I believe this will be successful? In some areas, notably smaller communities where there is more trust and less suspicion, I can see a ministry having a positive effect. Larger, urban areas where neighbor doesn't know neighbor will fail however. Too much division between classes, races, genders and ideologies for cohesion and cooperation to take root. Once spoiled urbanites have to endure a hardship, they will seek to find blame and take from those who have. The LA riots took place when bellies were full.

Being in a ministry to demonstrate Christ in the upcoming calamity has risks however. People now more than ever are willing to take advantage of those who are trying to provide a helping hand. I saw it every day. Whether you will accept it or not, God has historically turned his back on nations crying out for deliverance when the nation needed punishment for disobeying God's laws. Scripture does say that in the end times, (whether that is now or part of Y2K is unknown, I do not set dates or predict WHEN things may come to pass) there would be a famine of His Word. Post Y2K could well bring out the worst in many who are accustomed to comfort, and the Word of God becomes irrelevant to them. My suggestion in preparing a Y2K ministry: Be wise as serpents but gentle as doves. That does not however mean to leave yourselves open to being raped by a mob set on evil.

And of course now to Diane: - What incredible-nonsensical-feel-good- moronic-idiocy are you smoking and spouting??? What astral plane are you in?? Can your karma trip save us all? Can you really create your own "reality" of positive mental vibrations man? I can see that you look forward to Y2K as some sort of "Captain Planet" rescue from our evil industrialized West into some kind of leftist Eco-flower-power reformation that will esconce you earthy elitists into wacked-out ministers of positive feelings that absolutely have no bearing in reality whatsoever. MANKIND"S NATURE HASN'T CHANGED IN 7000 YEARS OF RECORDED HISTORY! What makes you think that you'll somehow be the first one to make "a positive change" of "millions even billions" working together? What arrogance! What stupidity!

"Then lets start planning so they dont have to do without. Just less. Lets give them a goal".

Yeah sure Diane, tell that to the myriad homeless bums I saw creeping around my old suburbs that refused to work, demanded handouts and wasted themselves into destitution. If we can't make the kind of difference you suggest now, what makes you think you'll make that difference then? Again feel-good arrogance.

"Teams of people all across the country already white wash the grafitti, and pick up the litter. How about writing on that wall with positive solutions, rather than lamenting the escalating problems? Give them the truth, then spell out the ways we can tackle our creative future."

Nonsensical Theobabble!! Tell you what Diane, Put your money where your mouth is. You put up the big bucks to get your warning message out on the airwaves (both radio, print and TV) in a way that galvanizes peoples attention in a positive way without panic. Then list these solutions you propose within the next few weeks to see if anyone heeds your suggestions. You get a decent enough percentage of the population listening and heeding, then you can preach to me about the power of positive feeling. Hell, you achieve that, count me in as one of your Eco-generals ready to forge the first "national commune".

"The people in your suburb werent prepared. It happened suddenly, with out warning."

Exactly Diane. Just like most of the nation is tonight. Totally asleep about Y2K, except for a few. You want to spend the bucks to warn them, go ahead. Perhaps you'll have better luck motivating the rest of the population, since I can't even get my relatives to aknowlege that there IS a problem! Good luck!

"Choose to prepare for anarchy and terrorism dominating and sure as shootin thats what youll get. If the vast majority of us choose to grow urban gardens THIS SPRING and mobilize our media, our rock and film stars, and (god forbid) actually talk positively about something REALLY important, on the web, or with those neighbors we barely smile at, because we finally have a compelling reason to do so, then maybe, just maybe we might create that New Age, and experience a smoother birth to a new global nation. Not one for one, but all for all."

What a wacked-out, devoid-of-reality, mystic-bullcrap manifesto that is! First, the majority of urbanians know NOTHING about growing gardens to plant for this Spring! They got cars to fix, congestion to avoid, jobs and family to deal with. They go to Jewel or Kroger's for veggies, they aint got time for "Mr. Green Thumbs". Who's gonna convince them to buy soil, seeds and fertilizer?? THE ROCK STARS???? (gimme a hit man, wow, this is SO REAL). Are the inner city thugs and druggies gonna curb the habit to grow alley-squash Diane??

Will your intensely unpleasant neighbor who is never home and who you've never formally met suddenly concur with your assesments and be motivated to action because you told him in a positive fashion that TEOTWAWKI will require him to divert his investments to an herb garden?

How will you motivate the media?? Bead therapy? Melodic chants? They're just waking up to Y2K, and they are approaching the story from the sensationalism aspect: Fleeing cities, guns and hideouts. It's a geek story to them. Hell, they still haven't woken up to the fact we sold missle guidance systems to China for campaign money! You think a plea to avoid a Y2K apocalypse through positive thinking is going to make it to the NBC Nightly news with Tom Brokaw? Not until a major breakdown occurs, or November sweeps ties a made-for-TV movie with a Dateline NBC piece ala "Asteroid".

You apparently believe Diane that goodness comes from within. That if we put our positive inner-selves to work, that we can overcome any obstacle, that we can of ourselves create our own reality. B.S. What arrogance to think that positive waves and motivations will change human nature. We are not one mind Diane, because that is what it would take to achieve what you propose. I have 7000 years of recorded history to back up my claim that you are completely wrong in this reality. You're misguided and fooled by your own sense of importance that you actually think a handful of likeminded people like you can change the heart of the vast majority of others who forsake God for their own ways. If you're convinced you can make the difference, then GO AND DO IT. Preaching positive thinking to those of us on the net is doing nothing to make your "vision" a reality.

Finally, we will have nothing to do with the birth of the "New Age", only the pain that preceeds it. God Himself will have to usher in the New Age because man has over 7000 years of recorded history to prove we cannot govern ourselves. Mankind has always rebelled at the authority of God's rule, we want to do it our way by ourselves. We have become gods in our own eyes. Y2K is about to prove us wrong. Like a father allowing his disobedient child to suffer from his own folly and disobedience, God will allow us to come to the point of collapse. Maybe then, at the point of extinction, will mankind decide to listen what is best for us from the Father and submit to His just rule. For if it were up to us, by ourselves then we're doomed to oblivion. Be thankful there's a plan for all mankind...and thankful we won't have to rely on our "inner selves" to save us from ourselves.

-- Mike Deering (mdeering@wk.net), October 27, 1998.

Jeepers Mike, that post just exuded good Christian vibes. Love your brother as you love yourself really works afterall huh? Quick somebody get Mike a stone, he is ready to cast.

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), October 27, 1998.

Gary North is now offering, for free, his "Surviving All 3 Stages of a Complete Flight to Cash". (He was offering it last week too, but had listserv problems.) Offer is only good for a couple of days. http://www.garynorth.com/y2k/detail_.cfm/2921

-- Jack (jsprat@eld.net), October 27, 1998.

Not my definition of "Brotherly love" Uncle Deedah, but God's. An entire congregation in the book of Acts was chastised for not condemning an evil act it was aware of. Y2K will be some rock to drop on us. But as for casting the first stone, if it's against the Godless society we've become then you bet I will. Christ did not suggest we now should condone our sins & problems by not condemning them! He called sin what it was. Called the Pharisees what they were: hypocrites! How backwards have we gotten that we collectively now refuse to condemn wrongdoing by saying "I don't want to judge"? God requires us to "Judge good from evil"! How can you do that unless you call idiocy, wrongdoing, and out and out evil what it is? I guess I would include in my definition of "brotherly love" the attempt to wake people up to get ready for this thing, and not to rely on emotional nonsense!

-- Mike Deering (mdeering@wk.net), October 27, 1998.

Im really encouraged for the future of our civilization, and YOUR children, by your attitude Mike. *Sigh* Let me see, maybe a different approach is required. Im writing a 3-part story that Ill post starting on another thread. Its kinda long. About a small town evacuation during a forest fire. Maybe from that you can extrapolate why the bunker mentality doesnt work, Mike.

Look for: Y2K Lessons Learned In A Small Town Evacuation -- Parts 1, 2 and 3 -- coming to a thread near you.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), October 28, 1998.

Methinks some people need to take a break from here. Maybe relatives and friends aren't listening because they feel they are being preached to. I have had much success by giving people verifiable facts. My friends and relatives are definitely starting to get it. Some of my co-workers have become aware independently and are now convincing others. I think America is waking up to this problem and that it won't be too late. The only reason it isn't "on the air" more is because of Clinton's problems and the upcoming election.

-- Buddy Y. (DC) (buddy@bellatlantic.net), October 28, 1998.

HI again all. Thanks for "not" flaming me, although it is getting a little HOT in here.

Chuck, great church there. Been there loved it. I am serious. That is truely a community minded church. Ours is also. West Side. Me thinks perhaps uncle deedah is near us as well???????

So true about Hough area, remember the riots? I was a wee lil girl then but I remember as we lived off Buckeye.

I guess bottom line is....we are ALL doing what we can. I disagree about the comment made "perhaps people arent listening cuz we be preaching " They are in DENIAL. period. Come this time next year perhaps that shall change i sure hope so. I for one am willing to share but it is their jobs to prepare. Once word gets out, AND IT WILL they will start. But, we may think we are prepared enuf, but we dont know. Our only hope is our faith. Pray and prepare. I for one am NOT ashamed to say that.

-- consumer alert (private@aol.com), October 28, 1998.

it's gone??????

-- pita (whatthe@it'sgone.com), November 19, 2002.