How far back does one have to go to insure a chip free vehicle? would that be across the board, or specific to certain manufacturers?

-- andy s. (aschwar3@san.rr.com), August 05, 1998

Answers

Andy.....I'm sorry no one has responded. I have only asked this question to some car buff friends and in general they say cars older than 1978. I am sure most used car dealers can give info regarding a specific model. I'm imagining a twilight zone with myself driving a 49 ford and not one SUV in sight!

-- Ronald Banks (phxbanks@webtv.net), August 07, 1998.

Hey, that's not funny!

We just got a 98 Honda CRV, and I really like it! (we aren't yuppies, my hubby's 88 Suburu finally went to the big car lot in the sky and we wanted something roomy & 4wd, etc.)

Unfortunately, in the TWO days between when we wrote the check and took delivery I discovered Y2K, so to speak. When we went to pick the car up, with great hope and crossed fingers I asked the salesman if it was compliant.

He said: "Huh?". (Dark clouds immediately began to form overhead, and the distant rumble of thunder could be heard.)

When I explained, he said (grinning happily): "Oh, sure! All Honda products are 100% compliant! No problems here!!!" (Lightning began to streak across the blackening sky...)

I'm now just hoping that if the newbie lays there dead, my 12 year old chevy Nova will still be kicking. (Gooood car! Niiice car! Want some more oil? Can I polish your hood? How 'bout some armor-all?...)

-- Debbie (lavoierd@gisco.net), August 07, 1998.

In answer to your question I would say if you want a car that is not computer assisted and still a "semi safe" car to putt around in, I wouldn't buy anything newer than a 1970 for domestic and 1980 for Import. The reason I say this is because in the 70s the domestic cars were first trying out the E/M equipment and they had garbage for motors and the reliability was not great to put it mildly. In the way of imports I would not buy anything European but stick with Japanese. The reason for this is that they still had "basicly" the same engines as they had through the 80s only they were mostly carbed instead of injected wich needs a computer. There are too many different makes and models to be specific on the years of when a computer was introduced. But for a general referance here are a few examples. The Camaro/Firebird recieved its first computer in 1983. While the Corvette got it in 84. The Ford Mustang jumped on the wagon in 82 for the most part. Now this is not to say that if the car has a carburator instead of Fuel Injection it won't have a computer. The Camaros went to F.I. in 86. While the Stang got it in 87. Also the Vettes have had it since the 60s. I am not a certifed mechanic however I do rebuild cars and modify cars new and old for racing, so I have seen and done quite a bit as far as computers and cars are concerned. On a different note if you don't want an old car and still want to drive home from the Y2K party I would suggest getting a 96 or later model year car. They are equiped with a totaly new computer called OBD II, Or On Board Diagnostics Second Generation. It is standard equipment on all cars after 1996 and many had them in 95. The OBD II system is totaly compliant as far as Y2K as it is TIME sensitive but not DATE sensitive. And contrary to popular oppinion I beleive 80-90% of computer controled cars will have no or at the very least minor problems (not including certain luxury cars such as the newer Caddys and some of the SUVs which have many computers which are most likly date sensitive). Anyhow good luck! You might just need it.

-- Brandon Morton (phoenix94@sprintmail.com), August 22, 1998.

If so many chips are vulnerable to Y2K that you are worried about your cars starting, gas will probably be in shorter supply than the cars that will start.

Now might be a good time to get a good used 'Quad' cycle or cheap dirt bike. These things don't use a lot of gas, so you could store enough gas to get where you need to go, although I don't know where that might be since nobody would likely be needed at the job. If you just really have to go somewhere, this could be the ticket.

But be sure to wear lots of body armor, and pack plenty of heat. If things are going to get that ugly you would make a nice loud target for someone who wants what you've got, a real concern if you're riding in the city. Then again there are always horses ;)

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), August 22, 1998.

For those of you who have European cars of `70's vintage, fear not. I am a veteran of several Italian cars, both brand "A" and brand "F" and neither of them have anything resembling a computer ( Or an electrical system for that matter.) Fuel injected Alfas up until about `82, used a Spica mechanical injection unit, very similar to a Diesel injection unit. It works on mechanical logic, nothing computerised about it. After `82, yer on y'own- Alfa went to Bosch for their injections. As fer fiat, stick with the 124 and 128 series up to about `79. `Cycles are open, try to keep away from GW's, but I doubt that anyone would seriously consider that behemoth for a survival vehicle. Has anyone really given any serious consideration to what would be a very useful vehicle, not dependent on gasoline or Diesel? Yep, a GOOD BICYCLE would probably be worth its weight in gold. Just stock up on spare chains and tubes and tires. Patch kits, too.

-- Damian Solorzano (oggy1@webtv.net), August 22, 1998.

The year that cars were first equipped with electronic engine control systems varies by model and manufacturer. The 1968 VW Squareback/Fastback had Bosch electronic fuel injection, but the control module used analog circuitry, not digital processing. By the mid '70s, many American vehicles were equipped with electronic ignitions (typically non-digital) even though many still had conventional carbs for fuel management. On the other hand, most mid- 70's German cars had fuel injection (often electronic), but generally old-style points/condenser ignition. By '79 to '80, most vehicles had some sort of electronic fuel controls, even if carburetor- equipped, to meet stricter emission requirements.

The good news, though, is that you needn't worry about it, unless you just want a simpler vehicle that can be kept running with "shade tree" repair methods in case parts and service for the current electronic wonders become difficult to obtain.

I have been in the automotive industry for about three decades, focusing on electronics and engine control systems. I've diagnosed & repaired the onboard computers down to the component level (replacing individual parts on the circuit board), taught factory classes for years on the subject, and presently work as a product engineer, which sometimes brings me in direct contact with those who write the code for the control modules. I have also designed and programmed small 8- bit embedded systems for use as diagnostic devices and for other special applications. I'm presently employed by a well-known Japanese auto manufacturer, a member of the Society of Automotive Engineers, and an ASE certified Master/L1 Technician.

I can tell you this: the Engine Control Module (ECM) in your car does not know, and does not care what the date is. Period. The onboard diagnostics on vehicles produced in the last few years keep track of things like how many seconds the engine has been running, certain things that took place during the last drive, etc. They have no need or ability to track the date. There are no clock/calendar chips with battery backup in the ECMs, as there are on PC motherboards, for example. When, your battery goes dead, or is replaced, do you have to take your car in to have a technician plug in the "scan tool" and reset the date in the ECM? Heck no! When the ECM is replaced at the repair shop, do they have to program the date into the new one that was pulled off the shelf? Absolutely not! Service technicians have no ability to set the date in the ECM -- just as you can't set the date on a typical kitchen timer. If you go to your favorite auto service establishment and ask them to set the date in the ECM up to 1/1/00 to see what will happen, they will just laugh. Either when you ask, or after you leave, depending on their mood. Their equipment has no ability to do that. You can't "set" something that doesn't exist.

I have seen concerns raised since some ECMs (or other related modules) track engine operation to illuminate "maintenance needed" indicators. These are based on mileage, or, in some cases, elapsed time and operating conditions. Again, no dates involved. Some Y2K speculation is that the maintenance tracking system could be date sensitive, and could shut down the engine if it thought maintenance had not been done for many years. This is pure uninformed and inaccurate speculation. Even if maintenance is ridiculously overdue, the engine is not shut down. Can you imagine the lawsuit if a family dies by being stranded in a blizzard because the ECM shut down the engine for overdue maintenance? The next of kin would own the company!! Car companies can sometimes be dumb, but not that dumb!

So, how come you can't get a written statement from your dealer or the manufacturer that your car is Y2K-OK? If you call the car manufacturer I work for, you will get a Customer Service rep. If he/she doesn't know the answer to a technical question, then they come to my group and ask the person responsible for the vehicle in question. So far, I've had one question from a CS rep for the particular model I handle. I told him to tell the customer that the vehicle is "absolutely, positively, without any question Y2K-OK." Worry about getting gas, not the ECM. If the caller asked for a written statement, as has been advocated in some Y2K books and articles, he would have been disappointed. I'm pretty sure we don't have an official statement yet. That will happen when there are enough inquiries to get the ball rolling for senior mgmt to have the legal department draft a statement. Until then, some may take the lack of an official written statement as a suspicious sign. Nope. It's just a "Dilbert" thing.

We have many things to concern ourselves with as we contemplate preparation for Y2K. I wonder if we will have enough electricity, food, water, etc. I do know that my computer controlled car will run if I am able to get gas....

Best wishes, Randy Jones

-- Randy Jones (randyjones@techie.com), September 28, 1998.

Randy Jones,

Could you do us all a favor and re-post your response here as a new thread? I think it would help some people stop worrying about their cars at least.

-- Buddy Y. (buddy@bellatlantic.net), September 28, 1998.